What happened Dalaran?!

90 Blood Elf Paladin
10725
Cana I only recently re-joined Hooray For Evil after leaving them for another guild over on Arthas. But what you're saying would work really well on paper and in theory but what makes a guild is the players and how they all work together to make it a close-knit guild. And I'm not saying what you have done is bad/good with the guild merger.

But what can happen to the merged guilds/raid groups do if their is a discrepancy or if a player/players from group A wants to shift over to group B? Or possibly one group tries to steal one player for their own leaving the other group one player down and the other too full?

Their are so many possible things that can go wrong in these types of situations that can literally destroy just more than the guilds that have merged these players in the guild (Merged guilds) friends can turn on each other and friendships can be broken. I want to say you're thinking too much of this as a equation and leaving the social/emotional aspect of the game that has literally kept this game alive.

Along with the ranks and privileges given to the GMs/Raid leaders what if the owner of the level one alt that is the GM just decides he wants to knit-pick all the good players from all of the raids groups to make one amazing raid team and kick all the people he/she does not feel should be in the guild after that decision.

I'm not saying what you've done is wrong at all I am actually very happy to see people actually getting along and acting like adults rather than two competing guilds fighting tooth and nail for the players on the server for their own guild. I applaud you for doing this it must have taken great thought and many trials and errors to achieve what you have done with the guild merger(s).

From my own personal experience I have never seen a guild merger end well (Remember Annihilate? I was in that merger.) But you know their is always that 1% that just makes it through and everything would be fine.

And don't take anything I said offensively generally look at things more as an equation like I stated earlier in one of my previous paragraphs I generally don't add the emotional/human characteristics of things but sometimes I do. :)

Oh and Hooray For Evil will always be my home as long as they let me stay in!
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90 Dwarf Priest
13415
If you want to make anything happen here esp on horde, you need to recruit off server or which a few of you might be aware of because we did it a lot: poaching. Which in and of itself is hard if you suck. I think to many guilds are just scared to replace anyone in the core. Even if they are not making the cut, things don't change by themselves. You make them change.


Speaking only for myself as a member of a crappy little guild, this make sense. We've had the same core since BC, and nearly every one of us who killed Arthas is still around today. But, like Cana, we are more often than not a warm body or two short on raid night.

The fact of the matter is that we're not good, but we used to plug along and eventually make our way through. But now, we're just fading away. I don't know how you recruit for a small group of real life friends and family that can't kill Garajal. With non-raid activity now focused on the dailies treadmill and LFR which most folks queue for on their own schedule, we've got no group activity outside of raid night. 5 mans are irrelevant and there isn't even something like VOA/BH to kill time in.

I've considered jumping ship, but I can't generate interest in starting over. Merging to me sounds like ditching folks I've played with for years all for the sake of normal mode progression, a prospect I find laughable. So I think I'm just go do something else with my time. And the sense I get is that I'm not the only one.
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95 Human Warrior
15405
Incoming walls of replies...

I warned ya.
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100 Human Priest
9145
Truthfully, in my honest opinion, if Blizzard had never moved to the "normal vs heroic" mode model, raiding would be far more enjoyable. Working through content twice, with just some little changes to make it more difficult, doesn't change the fact it's the same content. Also, a lot of the raiding community on Dalaran is older, and not able to put in the time any longer, I too am in that boat. WoW has been really fun for all the years I've played it, but eventually everyone reaches the point where they realize the reward isn't worth the effort it requires. Anyways, good luck to all those still out there working to progress, keeping Dalaran above water, even if just barely lol.
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95 Human Warrior
15405
Well, take Night Haven, for example. They raid late at night, so unless you raid late at night as well, you can't merge with them. Also, I feel it's against the point of having a guild if you don't talk to each other out of raid time, so might as well just stay in individual guilds and use trade chat/general chat to communicate.

And yeah, I'd be frustrated about calling a raid if you're only one short.


I would counter that everything you typed is the very reason to be under one umbrella. Lets say you both went under a single umbrella; lets say Night Haven has 1-3 people who actually play before their late night run. You guys log on to find out that your tank has a "side job" and can't make it. Before going to /2, you see a guy from Nigh Haven on early now you could just say: "hey got a few hours before your raid? bob is out tonight"

Guild chat can be turned on and off...just like /2. Having more people in guilds can increase the guild traffic. At the same time if "Night Haven" feels they still need a channel to discuss "night haven" talk, then there are tools to allow for a channel creation and they can do that.

The staying in individual guilds is fine, that's what is going on right now. Unfortunately you have SEVERAL guilds all recruiting over the top of one another.

As far as being frustrated, last night was pretty bad for me. We killed 3 brand new bosses last week. We need empress to open up Terrace. We cancelled Wed. and Thr. because we had "9" people and we didn't have enough parts to get "2 tanks" ; "3 heals"...and i've even been warned plan on "4 heals".

If you happen to know anyone that enjoys playing MULTIPLE roles of their class and wants to raid, send them my way.
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95 Human Warrior
15405
03/21/2013 10:30 PMPosted by Madshøt
If you want to make anything happen here esp on horde, you need to recruit off server or which a few of you might be aware of because we did it a lot: poaching.


Recruiting off server is completely viable option. However, I think that some things can still be addressed on server too. Again, this comes to ego. Look at how many "casual guilds" are seeing "a few more to fill our ranks". There is a post under this one of a Husband and a wife...2 people. They are now looking to fill 8+ spots. I would ask them, why not join other married couples (we have a few couples that are within our ranks). Again, it has to be a culture change. I appreciate what you're saying and would go as far as saying you're not wrong in any regards.

I would just encourage people to consider a culture change. The content requires 10/25 and if you consistently don't have 10/25, then you have limited options. There are too many groups all recruiting over the top of one another.

Which in and of itself is hard if you suck.


I think this gets used way too much in wow. "suck" is VERY subjective. I'll put myself out there: I have killed th guy on the box every single expansion. I have achievements like "Herald of the Titans" and if you look at the date, it was done when the content was relevant. I have raided with Obscured Reasoning, The Windriders, Downfall, left the server and played another class in Shai Hulud (US top 100 in TBC), returned with Natural Affinity to eventually deciding to play with real life friends in the 10-man format. Despite the size of AL, we've managed to stay within the top 10 of guild achievement points. We've dabbled in PVE and RBGs.

I don't think that says: "suck" - either at a Player level or guild level.

I could echo a lot of that with a 1/2 dozen guilds I've run with: CVN, Rapid Pandas, Shadows of Eternity, Hobo Assasins (I did participate with Windowless Van & Covenant before their departures); are just a few that come to the top of my head.

I honestly don't think it's a matter of "suck". That all being said, this entire expansion of MOP I've had 3 raid weeks where we had "10" guildies online, ready to raid. 1...2...3. Every other week, it's "something".

I think to many guilds are just scared to replace anyone in the core. Even if they are not making the cut, things don't change by themselves. You make them change.


CUt who though. Either you have "10" or you do not have "10". It is well esablished, at least from my point of view, if I can get "10" people to: Sign up, Show up, and just maintain some form of gear organization (enchants, gems, reforging); you'll be invited first priority.

That's not to say I don't like the people, but I can think of 4-5 people I would tell them straight up: "dude, you're hear on a Wed your MIA on a THr. You show up 2 weeks, you disappear for a week. You have to sit because this person signs up, shows up, and performs.

I wouldn't be mean, I would be matter-of-fact. The issue is, every time I get a new person, two more disappear. They didn't quit the guild. THey didn't start playing alts. They just never sign on. (and yes, I've lost a few to other more progressed guilds)...which starts the cycle of having to re-gear new people.

Give me "10" people, twice a week, and we'll take out bosses. We have demonstrated success doing it all the way back to Karazhan.

Again, I'm not being confrontational with you, I just think it's too easy to say: "you suck", "recruit off server"

If anything, make LFR drop BLUE (rare) gear and have it share the same lockout as Normal/Heroic raiding. I'd love to see how that would impact the situation.
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95 Human Warrior
15405
03/21/2013 10:35 PMPosted by Madshøt
To talk about what Cena is trying to say at what point is it even a guild anymore?


Now you're getting it! What is the point anymore?

If you look, how many guilds are on JUST the first page looking for "a few more" to "fill the ranks". Every freakin' day there are 2-3 new guilds doing the same thing. As I previously pointed out, the one that just makes me shake my head is the level 8 guild of a husband and wife that are looking to fill with people so they can run LFR together to eventually start a raid team. Off the top of my head: Hobo Assasins, Rapid Pandas, Shadows of Eternity, and Acceptable Losses are all guilds of MOSTLY adult players...adult players over the age of 30...adult players that are playing with their spouse(s). Why on earth does a new guild need to be formed outside of vanity?

I would argue, with LFR, guilds are in fact non-essential. Take for instance Toppy http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/dalaran/Toppy/advanced

I've had this guy on my buddy list for what has to be close to 2 years. As far as I can tell, never been in a guild. Every time we are short a DPS, he's the first guy I look to see if he's online. He's always prepared (brings his own flasks, potions). I stopped using Mr. Robot on him a long time ago because he's always gemmed, enchanted and reforged. He never says 2 words on vent, but always responds when given a direction: "ok". Every week he manages to get into some raid, though if he doesn't he has his LFR kills. Overall, his reps seem to be maxed or work in progress. I would put gold on it, that if invited to run with any non-heroic guild he would be in the top 1-3 DPS. I've asked him no less than a dozen times, if he'd like to join us for a permanent spot and he's always polite and declines.

He doesn't need a guild.

That's what's going on right now. The large majority of people really don't need a guild. So, "guild" has to be redefined. I would make the analogy that guild members should be thought of like Bags/Bag Space. More is better. Which is a good segui to the next quote.

Also different personalities is a HUGE issue in the raid, why the heck am I raiding if it's with 15 people I can't stand, let alone work together to kill something.


I want to be clear, I'm not talking about large scale merging for the sake of shuffling the lineups. I'm an advocate to have access to "1" or "2". I'm not suggesting you have a "group a" and you totally turn it on its head. You're going to disenfranchise your existing people and potentially exposing yourself to the very thing you're not thrilled about too many different personalities. Rather, I'm suggesting if you have 5 or 6 guilds on the front page saying: "need 1 or 2 more to fill ranks". Marge into one guild. Have that GM still be a "Calendar Creator". Still maintain the SAME roster. The advantage comes when Thursday rolls around and Bob the tank cancells/no shows you have a LARGER pool to pull from internally of the "guild".

I mean Authentic runs 4 raid groups so it could be done either way. If someone in group 1 can't make it we take a player from group 2.


This is precisely the idea. It's great that you ahve "4" groups and is exactly what I'm advocating. Just substitute "groups" for existing "guilds" have those groups all merge under a single umbrealla. Guild 1 could be "group 1"; Guild 2 could be "Group 2"; etc. Just like your example, if group 1 shows up Thursday to discover the tank cancelled they could look to "group 2 & 3" either alts or mains not saved. We're speaking the same language, I'm just advocating it at an even larger scale.

We're not running around merging with guilds or need some ridiculously over complicated rank setup.


Just to clarify, I'm actually simplifying the rank setup because you eliminate it all: GM (can't get rid of it); "Calendar Creators" (these are the raid leaders/GMs that set the schedule); "People who want to raid"; "People who want to be in a guild"; "alts"; & "Just Invited"

You can't get any simpler than that. Grant EVERYONE the ability to invite to the guild. Grant the "Calendar Creators" 100% guild privelegs. I'm suggesting taking ALL the restrictions off.

When Revision "merged", I made Dralnor 100% full "officer" with 100% priveleges. He invited every single one of the REvision members. He 100% promoted them. Every single person in the guild can invite to the guild. 100% of all calendar invites are 100% visible to 100% of the guild. If you want to raid, all you have to do is sign up, show up, and be ready.
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95 Human Warrior
15405
I'm suggesting this needs to happen even at a larger scale. THe facty you have 4 groups internal to your guild is precisely what i'm suggesting. Have "X" internal groups that have the ability to pull from other internal groups.

I already have it in place, so any guilds reading this: I'll do the same thing as I did with Revision. Your GM/Raid Leader will be instantly placed in the Highest Rank with 100% priveleges. THat person(s) will be able to invite and promote. EVERYONE will have 100% visibility to bank tabs, repairs, calendar invites, etc.

On the same token, I'll personally state that if another guild wants to extend the same offer to 100% of the members of Acceptable Losses - I would advocate an "US" into "YOU" to do exactly what I'm stating. The only disclaimer I put on that, the inviting guild needs to be higher GUILD Achievement points w/ the 8th bank tab open and be open to the rank structure proposed: "GM" : Raid Leaders : Raiders : Members : Alts : Just Invited w/ 100% access.

That's how much I believe this needs to happen to get raiding.
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85 Tauren Hunter
7325
i am old school dalaran. from all the way back in LK
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95 Human Warrior
15405
Cana I only recently re-joined Hooray For Evil after leaving them for another guild over on Arthas. But what you're saying would work really well on paper and in theory but what makes a guild is the players and how they all work together to make it a close-knit guild. And I'm not saying what you have done is bad/good with the guild merger.

But what can happen to the merged guilds/raid groups do if their is a discrepancy or if a player/players from group A wants to shift over to group B? Or possibly one group tries to steal one player for their own leaving the other group one player down and the other too full?


I gotta come up with another word/term other than Merger. "Housed umbrella". I didn't ask Revision to change anything. Dralnor has 100% priveleges he had as GM of Revision. His "raiders" have 100% access to the exact same things they had access to before. The only change that has occured is that instead of "Revision" over their head it now says "Acceptable Losses".

Last Wednesday, if you wanted to break it down, "Acceptable Losses" had "8" people online and "Revision" had "2". That "10" got the first two bosses in HOF down. THen "1" Revision was subsituted for "1" Acceptable Losses for Garalon (Guild 1st kill, "9" Acceptable Losses "1" Revision). That same "9":"1" split got the next boss. Then on Thursday a completely different "9"+"1" raid group killed Amber Shaper. If Revision had not "merged" into Acceptable Losses:

"Dralnor" would have had to find a PUG raid.
"Acceptable Losses" would have had to cancel two raids last week
"Acceptable Losses" would NOT have killed 3 new bosses

THis week we had:

Wednesday: 6-7 "Acceptable Losses" : 1-2 "Revision" : We were missing 3 people who Heal
Thursday: 7 "Acceptable Losses" : 2 "Revision" : We were missing "1" person cable of Tanking or Healing

This Sunday (a day Acceptable Losses has NEVER raided on) is a regular raiding night for "Revision". There is a Calendar event that Dralnor is 100% responsible for and there are "Acceptable Losses" players (people who have NEVER had access to a Sunday night raid) signed up.

This is the type of "merger" I"m describing. Guilds have "days" and "times" already defined. MANY guilds have a solid "7-10" people but routinely coming up "1-2" short. What I'm suggesting, is pick a single "container" to put all these guilds in. Make sure the GM/Raid Leader have a rank that gives them 100% control as they have no, schedule their raids internal to a BIGGER "container". You can still be "Hooray For Evil" in every sense, just do it within a larger container.
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95 Human Warrior
15405
Their are so many possible things that can go wrong in these types of situations that can literally destroy just more than the guilds that have merged these players in the guild (Merged guilds) friends can turn on each other and friendships can be broken. I want to say you're thinking too much of this as a equation and leaving the social/emotional aspect of the game that has literally kept this game alive.


Here's the social and emotional aspect last night: People, myself included, were pissed.

Friend or Not...last week, I killed 3 new bosses. This week, I was stuck with the big fat ZERO. I'm depending on 9 other people to: sign up, show up, and be ready. That has happened 3 times this entire expansion.

There are enough guilds on this front page to suggest, we're not alone. As the title of this very forum post asks: "what happened to the progression". What happened is a significant reduction in commited players.

If you were truly my "friend" if you cared about my "emotional aspect", you would show up Wed & Thr for a few hours and hang out. As it turns out, that's not the case. That's not being mean, that's not calling out any one person that's me stating: "Hey I cleared Wed & Thr night with my wife to play a video game, and I'd actually like to do just that play". Give me "10" people and we'll kill bosses.

#digress

All I'm suggesting is that you have WAY too many guilds NOT running because they're missing "1-2". It's time to consider re-thinking "guild". Hey, if you're in Hooray for Evil and you guys have 12 people showing up every raid time, fantastic. I"m suggesting that it's not happening in the guilds that haven't even entered into TOT. Just go on your favorite progress site and look at how many guilds are stuck on: Garalon, Amber Shaper, Empress, and a whole Terrace. We're two weeks into 5.2 and MAYBE 12 guilds have killed the first boss in TOT?

Along with the ranks and privileges given to the GMs/Raid leaders what if the owner of the level one alt that is the GM just decides he wants to knit-pick all the good players from all of the raids groups to make one amazing raid team and kick all the people he/she does not feel should be in the guild after that decision.


Let's be honest, it's already happening at least now it will be done internally. In no way am I calling her out or blaming her for what she did. We had a raider (Naple), she's good. SHe can play multiple classes and multiple roles and do so well. She raided with us through Firelands and DS and hung around in MOP. Having only "2" weeks where all 10 people showed up, she found a place in Kaizen. For the next month, I had to fill a DPS slot. Not only that, I had to fill a #1-#3 dps with "we gotta regear this new person".

What I'm suggesting is that if the "nit pick" guy wants to cherry pick "the best", well bring your "not the best" with you. Cherry pick "my best" and leave me 2-3 "not the best" so I can have "10" to raid. You're talking to a raid leader that killed Magmaw with: 3 druids, 2 DKs, 2 Pallies, 1 Warrior, Mage, & Lock. Go back and look at Magmaw and think about your first kill, would you have brought that makeup? Would anyone but me?

I'm not saying what you've done is wrong at all I am actually very happy to see people actually getting along and acting like adults rather than two competing guilds fighting tooth and nail for the players on the server for their own guild. I applaud you for doing this it must have taken great thought and many trials and errors to achieve what you have done with the guild merger(s).

From my own personal experience I have never seen a guild merger end well (Remember Annihilate? I was in that merger.) But you know their is always that 1% that just makes it through and everything would be fine.


I can appreciate that. I wish I could come up with another term other than "merger". I just think exposure is needed. The "guild container" needs to be larger. Trying to work off a 10-man roster is not cutting it for a lot of guilds.

As I've said several times, I don't want "Revision" to change a thing. I want them to raid the nights they have always raided (Sunday is a good example). If "Acceptable Losses" is short, hopefuly we can pick up a "Revision" player. I'd like to expand this concept to other "Raiding guilds that are not raiding". If you're raiding, then I guess that may/may not apply to you.
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95 Human Warrior
15405
And don't take anything I said offensively generally look at things more as an equation like I stated earlier in one of my previous paragraphs I generally don't add the emotional/human characteristics of things but sometimes I do. :)


Not at all, it's the very feedback that is often given when approached about this subject. Nothing you said is "wrong". I'm just stating that what's happening now, is not working for at least a dozen guilds. There are at least a dozen alliance guilds stuck on Garalon, or stuck on 'x'. There are well over 50 guilds (think about that), 50 guilds that have not even stepped into TOT. TOT is 2 weeks old and 50 guilds haven't even done it outside of LFR. That's VERY disappointing.

[Quote]Oh and Hooray For Evil will always be my home as long as they let me stay in! [/quote]

#Respect
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95 Human Warrior
15405
03/22/2013 07:28 AMPosted by Typhonn
Speaking only for myself as a member of a crappy little guild, this make sense. We've had the same core since BC, and nearly every one of us who killed Arthas is still around today. But, like Cana, we are more often than not a warm body or two short on raid night.


Again, I'll put it out there. Your ENTIRE group is invited to join in. Your GM/Raid Leader will be invited first and promoted to the top tier rank with 100% priveleges. That person(s) will be able to invite 100% of your entire group and promote them appropriately. You'll have 100% access to 100% of guild assets. Your GM/Raid Leader will be encourag

The fact of the matter is that we're not good, but we used to plug along and eventually make our way through. But now, we're just fading away. I don't know how you recruit for a small group of real life friends and family that can't kill Garajal. With non-raid activity now focused on the dailies treadmill and LFR which most folks queue for on their own schedule, we've got no group activity outside of raid night. 5 mans are irrelevant and there isn't even something like VOA/BH to kill time in.


it's as if i wrote that paragraph...i definitely understand.

I've considered jumping ship, but I can't generate interest in starting over. Merging to me sounds like ditching folks I've played with for years all for the sake of normal mode progression, a prospect I find laughable. So I think I'm just go do something else with my time. And the sense I get is that I'm not the only one.


Again, it's as if I wrote that paragraph.

All I'll say is, you don't have to "jump ship". have EVERYONE come over. have your raid leader post the same schedule and have it exposed to a larger group of players.

i'm not gonna lie, last night really was a kick in the groin to me personally. Having killed 3 new bosses last week, I was really excited headed into this week to get Empress.

I bought my son an Xbox for Christmas. Wednesday night I played a little Forza. It kills me to be this far behind in Normal content.
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90 Troll Mage
9720
Completely agree with Cana here, Dalaran is a dead server filled with loser nerds trying to hold onto past glories. The only way anything is going to change is if we all make one super guild and have a series of calender makers and signer uppers.

I would also suggest that we have additional roles such as Motivator. One of the key aspects forgotten by many people is the need to be motivated. These players would be responsible for helping motivate raids after each wipe with positive comments via whispers and in game mail. I believe such changes would drastically increase the performance of all players and should be implemented immediately. Mods should not be used to send these messages as they should be tailored to fit each person individually in their particular situation. As such, the Motivator will need to have a good understanding of each member within the raids, so we will need to have mandatory ventrilo and mumble meetings in order to do ice breakers and get to know each other. As motivation is a great propellant in the fire that is our passion, demotivational behavior is the water that quenches our flames. All demotivational behavior whether it be verbal, guild chat, or even whisper will be met with swift judiciary action.

Also, as you know, a raid cannot function to its fullest without supplies for potions, flasks, and food. We will need an additional rank we'll call the Worker. The worker will be responsible for supplying raids with the materials needed to down bosses. In order to encourage such behavior, every member will be required to donate a small amount of materials each week. Failing to do so will be met with swift judiciary action. As an additional benefit to the workers, they will be the only rank in the guild with guild repairs. Additional ranks such as Signer Upper Worker will be added so that raiders can also be workers.

Another rank we will need to function properly will be the Builder rank. As no colony can survive without a steady stream of workers and fighters, it will be the job of the Builder to supplies these. The Builder will train, level, and help gear up new players so that they can be ready for raiding. The Builder will also have the responsibility of referring their built players to the calender makers in order to have them ready to be subbed in for loot and experience.

Loot will be a large issue and so we will need a system in place in order to even out everyone's item level. All healers, tanks, and dps will submit their gear profile each week to a system that determines the average item level over the entire guild. Only members from the bottom working to the top will be allowed to raid, as members with better gear are already sustained. Each week this inventory will be updated and and those who had better gear will fall behind and once again be eligible to raid. This will allow for the guild to progress perfectly and evenly all around to create a strong middle class. Members caught raiding above the allowed limit will be met with swift judiciary action.

Now for the final component that will unify everyone under one banner. Every group needs a strong leader. I know that you suggested to make a level 1 as the leader, but I believe that without a strong leader members will not be motivated and look up to them. The guild leader will be called Our Dear Leader, and he will be the greatest and strongest of us all. The guild leader will be allowed first priority into any raid and gets first dibs on any and all gear, even for offspec. This will ensure that Our Dear Leader will be above us all and look down on us with glorious leadership.

We must do this for the glory of Dalaran. We must do this for the future of us all. Please come together and join in unity and harmony under our glorious dear leader.
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100 Worgen Rogue
10045
i am old school dalaran, from all the way back in LK
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95 Human Warrior
15405
Completely agree with Cana here


I welled up pride and pure joy.

03/22/2013 01:47 PMPosted by Nmmoinno
Dalaran is a dead server filled with loser nerds trying to hold onto past glories.


The forums givith; the forums taketh
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90 Troll Mage
9720
03/22/2013 02:41 PMPosted by Cana
Completely agree with Cana here


I welled up pride and pure joy.

03/22/2013 01:47 PMPosted by Nmmoinno
Dalaran is a dead server filled with loser nerds trying to hold onto past glories.


The forums givith; the forums taketh


Sorry, I never really read what you said. It's my belief as a Democrat that reading things before agreeing with them goes against progress.
Edited by Nmmoinno on 3/22/2013 6:01 PM PDT
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90 Orc Hunter
18725
Combo, who let you out of your cage?
Edited by Madshøt on 3/23/2013 3:06 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
10570
i am old school dalaran, from all the way back in LK

Not sure if serious...
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90 Troll Mage
18190
i am old school dalaran, from all the way back in LK


Psh bish, whatchu know about old school Zerxes spam and chillin' on top of the bank with Forgar.
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