Is it just me or is t15 a tad overtuned.

90 Human Paladin
12290
What's your concept of an appropriately tuned raid, in a world with three difficulty settings? I'm curious, because you've been posting here for years arguing that everything is overtuned.

Do you not like the LFR for randoms, normal modes for organised guilds, heroics for guilds who want a challenge model? Or do you not think they live up to it?


This is a separate question from the one I was addressing. The question "is ToT the same difficulty as Ulduar or ICC" is an objective one, that can be answered by looking at progression data. The question "what should the difficulty be" depends on goals and individual values, and is subjective.

So, I'll turn that around, and ask you what you mean by "appropriate"? What would make me, personally, the happiest? What I think would make the Blizzard devs happiest? What would make Activision-Blizzard's shareholders happiest? You'll get a different answer to each of those, I think.
Edited by Osmeric on 3/15/2013 4:30 AM PDT
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80 Night Elf Druid
15370
I'd say it is a little bit overtuned, from what I've seen, but Blizzard has probably done the best they can. T14 is still there if you're not quite ready for T15. Blizzard can always nerf T15 later if they feel its necessary - but they can't buff a raid once its been released. For this reason they err on the side of overtuning, and I think I agree with them.
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1 Undead Mage
0
03/14/2013 11:50 PMPosted by Osmeric
Pretty sure it's on par with Ulduar and ICC in terms of difficulty.


The progression data don't support this conclusion.

my personal data (running the same 40/25-man guild since molten core) does support the conclusion. normal-mode T15 appeared to be about the same difficulty as ulduar easy modes, and normal-mode ICC. only speaking for 25-man though. obviously 10-man T15 should be way harder than 10-man ulduar or 10-man ICC, since 10-mans were intentionally undertuned prior to cataclysm.
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90 Human Paladin
12290
03/15/2013 05:40 AMPosted by Coneofcold


The progression data don't support this conclusion.

my personal data (running the same 40/25-man guild since molten core) does support the conclusion. normal-mode T15 appeared to be about the same difficulty as ulduar easy modes, and normal-mode ICC. only speaking for 25-man though. obviously 10-man T15 should be way harder than 10-man ulduar or 10-man ICC, since 10-mans were intentionally undertuned prior to cataclysm.


More people were progressing faster in ICC after it opened than are progressing now in T15 normal mode. This is clear from the data you can see at wowprogress. About 10K 25 man guilds had done the first boss of ICC 25 by the end of the first week. In contrast, most of the guilds that have downed the first boss in ToT are 10 man guilds. And his was before the stacking nerfs to ICC.

Raid participation is in a precarious state now. A great many of the guilds that got stalled in T14 appear to have just given up, progressing neither in T15 normal nor in nerfed T14. They apparently recognize, correctly I think, that Blizzard has tuned them out of the content.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
megaera is garalon 2.0

that is, good guilds will clear it, average guilds will struggle with it.
Edited by Aeliel on 3/15/2013 6:17 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
12290
megaera is garalon 2.0

that is, good guilds will clear it, average guilds will struggle with it.


At this point, average (from T14) guilds are 0/12 in ToT. So I suspect the average guild will never get to Megaera.
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03/15/2013 02:27 AMPosted by Naumu
doesn't make my reply "ignorant."

I'd think the part you are ignoring (not ignorant, just missing the issue) is that due to the number of adds being the same causes any failure to be magnified 2.5x. I'll use a fairly extreme example. Say in 25m, say 4 people get hit and you've got 2 dispels. It'll hurt but within 8 seconds everyone is clear. Now, that same 4 hit in 10man and you've got 1 dispel. You just wiped.

Another example is say there's 5 adds and they all target dps and they all move. In 10man, you've got 80-100% of you dps on mobile dps. On 25man you've got less than 30%.

The fight is completely killable in both modes, but due to the number of adds comparable to the size of the raid, 10man is a lot tighter tuned currently.
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90 Undead Priest
16410
To the OP. No I don't think T15 is overtuned if you compare it against all of WoW's tiers. Nearly everything except Tortos has been a skill check rather than a DPS check. However if you compare T15 to T13 then yes it is overtuned.

03/15/2013 02:19 AMPosted by Tewa


What does that have to do with anything...? s/he is right.


On a 25-man, you have more aoe slows to keep the adds from hitting people. On 10-man, you don't.
Oh a 25-man, half your DPS can kite the adds around, leaving the other half to kill them. If you have people kiting the adds on 10-man, there's nobody left to kill them. (Or heal.)
On a 25-man, you have sufficient healers to remove diseases from people who do get them. Woe to the 10-man who brings a healing class that cannot cure disease.


Funny. 10man raiders complain about how all 25man raiding is class stacking... Guess what? Progression 10man raiding is the same thing. If you want to be successful, stop complaining and have a good class comp, good overflow and people with offspecs/alts.

Finally. I find it incredibly humorous that you make statements about one fight but don't even mention how completely ridiculous easy Tortos or Ji-kun is on 10man when compared to 25man. How about Durumu? You get the same space as 10man, but 2x the lingering gaze in the same amount of space and somehow have to manage to see the maze with 2.5x the amount of players standing in a tight clump (lol@melee).

So take your entitlement and your give-it-to-me-without-effort attitude and GTFO. 25mans will do what it takes to be successful... why won't you and your guild?
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90 Tauren Druid
9370
Wasn't t14 also "overtuned"? I thought for sure Stone Gaurd was supposed to be way too hard for anyone to clear ... or at least that's what I read on the forums.

I'm not going to get Horridin down any time soon. That's not because it's overtuned, it's because my group is all around ilevel 480-490, and we're not "pro" enough to make up the difference.

Though I'm certainly looking forward to it. From what I saw in LFR, this is going to be a very fun tier.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14825
Raid participation is in a precarious state now. A great many of the guilds that got stalled in T14 appear to have just given up, progressing neither in T15 normal nor in nerfed T14. They apparently recognize, correctly I think, that Blizzard has tuned them out of the content.
So what's the solution? Make normals even easier so you HAVE to do heroic if you want any sort of challenge? That's what LFR is for. I do think that a lot of lousy players simply quit trying and turned to playing LFR only, but I have a hard time raising any sympathy for them. You see it here all the time, "Boo hoo, this is slightly hard and I don't want to improve, nerf it immediately!"

But normals need to have enough challenge that moderately-skilled players can get through it with gear and practice before the next tier comes out. Otherwise heroic mode tuning will be a brick wall for a huge number of players and they'll simply farm normals forever and keep complaining that heroics are too hard and need to be nerfed. And as much as I hate players screaming about "dumbing down", that is exactly the effect that would happen if they caved on normal difficulty tuning, and it would then creep into heroic raids by necessity.
At this point, average (from T14) guilds are 0/12 in ToT. So I suspect the average guild will never get to Megaera.
Oh, get off it, seriously. >:(

I downed 16/16N, and my normal raidgroup got Sha in February, only 4 kills total. The only real heroic progress I have happened after 5.2. That means this group is precisely at the intended skill level for normal modes, no more and no less. And we got Horridon down just fine. I didn't expect to get 12/12 on the first week, but we're on track to get there eventually.

If you aren't clearing normal T14 then you may not fully clear T15 during this patch and I don't see anything wrong with that design. There's enough catch-up opportunity in place it won't suck horrendously like TBC.
Edited by Breathkeeper on 3/15/2013 9:01 AM PDT
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
More people were progressing faster in ICC after it opened than are progressing now in T15 normal mode. This is clear from the data you can see at wowprogress. About 10K 25 man guilds had done the first boss of ICC 25 by the end of the first week. In contrast, most of the guilds that have downed the first boss in ToT are 10 man guilds. And his was before the stacking nerfs to ICC.


Well, there are a lot less 25 man guilds now as a whole, so.. that's sort of what you would expect to see and I'm not sure you can draw the conclusion you're drawing from it.

megaera is garalon 2.0

that is, good guilds will clear it, average guilds will struggle with it.


Magaera 25 is not Garalon. Don't know about 10. 25 Magaera isn't hard though and doesn't have a death trigger (purple circle) or a passing mechanic (pheromones) so I can't see it stopping many guilds.

At this point, average (from T14) guilds are 0/12 in ToT. So I suspect the average guild will never get to Megaera.


lolwut
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90 Undead Warlock
9020


Raid participation is in a precarious state now. A great many of the guilds that got stalled in T14 appear to have just given up, progressing neither in T15 normal nor in nerfed T14. They apparently recognize, correctly I think, that Blizzard has tuned them out of the content.


The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
This is a separate question from the one I was addressing. The question "is ToT the same difficulty as Ulduar or ICC" is an objective one, that can be answered by looking at progression data. The question "what should the difficulty be" depends on goals and individual values, and is subjective.

So, I'll turn that around, and ask you what you mean by "appropriate"? What would make me, personally, the happiest? What I think would make the Blizzard devs happiest? What would make Activision-Blizzard's shareholders happiest? You'll get a different answer to each of those, I think.


It can be looked at objectively, but you should also take into account reductions in the available raider pool due to population, less 25s, and LFR (when possible, or roughly estimate). All of those point to a lower participation rate. So even if nothing else changed, it wouldn't be fair to call it objectively harder.

And assuming we're looking at the whole tier, not just the first few bosses, you'd probably have to wait a bit longer. If you're just looking at the first few bosses, remember there also aren't 5mans this time around (or lfr the first week to offset it), as well as less pugs even attempting to form.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19085
The nerfs this week have fixed a lot of the glaring fights. I still feel that Horridon will be changed in some way because, like it or not, having a fight where balanced dispels make the fight significantly easier is not what a normal mode should be tuned for.

Outside of that:

Megaera: Acid Rain should do lower damage

Durumu: Either lower the bosses health OR
Reduce the amount the boss can heal from life drain OR
Make the maze easier (I'd prefer the first two, as the maze is kind of fun, but this fight is still a bit overtuned).

Primordius: I can't tell if the enrage is tight or if our dps were just slacking off on buff acquisition as we killed it on our second pull.
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
Funny. 10man raiders complain about how all 25man raiding is class stacking... Guess what? Progression 10man raiding is the same thing. If you want to be successful, stop complaining and have a good class comp, good overflow and people with offspecs/alts.

Finally. I find it incredibly humorous that you make statements about one fight but don't even mention how completely ridiculous easy Tortos or Ji-kun is on 10man when compared to 25man. How about Durumu? You get the same space as 10man, but 2x the lingering gaze in the same amount of space and somehow have to manage to see the maze with 2.5x the amount of players standing in a tight clump (lol@melee).

So take your entitlement and your give-it-to-me-without-effort attitude and GTFO. 25mans will do what it takes to be successful... why won't you and your guild?


Talk about a comment blown out of proportion.

10 mans have less dispels available. And that can cause them to fall behind easily on that type of stuff if any sort of mistake happens, or just due to the fight.

I'm not saying 10 man is easier or harder (it's entirely boss dependent), but for 10 man raids that just attempt to progress through the content and aren't really looking for super fast clears, or stacked comps you typically take who you can get, and you don't have people riding the bench ready for that one fight where their class is needed.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19085
To the OP. No I don't think T15 is overtuned if you compare it against all of WoW's tiers. Nearly everything except Tortos has been a skill check rather than a DPS check. However if you compare T15 to T13 then yes it is overtuned.



On a 25-man, you have more aoe slows to keep the adds from hitting people. On 10-man, you don't.
Oh a 25-man, half your DPS can kite the adds around, leaving the other half to kill them. If you have people kiting the adds on 10-man, there's nobody left to kill them. (Or heal.)
On a 25-man, you have sufficient healers to remove diseases from people who do get them. Woe to the 10-man who brings a healing class that cannot cure disease.


Funny. 10man raiders complain about how all 25man raiding is class stacking... Guess what? Progression 10man raiding is the same thing. If you want to be successful, stop complaining and have a good class comp, good overflow and people with offspecs/alts.

Finally. I find it incredibly humorous that you make statements about one fight but don't even mention how completely ridiculous easy Tortos or Ji-kun is on 10man when compared to 25man. How about Durumu? You get the same space as 10man, but 2x the lingering gaze in the same amount of space and somehow have to manage to see the maze with 2.5x the amount of players standing in a tight clump (lol@melee).

So take your entitlement and your give-it-to-me-without-effort attitude and GTFO. 25mans will do what it takes to be successful... why won't you and your guild?


Normal mode.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
Raid participation is in a precarious state now. A great many of the guilds that got stalled in T14 appear to have just given up, progressing neither in T15 normal nor in nerfed T14. They apparently recognize, correctly I think, that Blizzard has tuned them out of the content.


So.. the really bad guilds can't progress, even in nerfed content (seriously, Elegon and Garalon have been like thrice nerfed now), and it's somehow a problem?

Not buying it, sorry.
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90 Orc Warrior
19155


The progression data don't support this conclusion.


What's your concept of an appropriately tuned raid, in a world with three difficulty settings? I'm curious, because you've been posting here for years arguing that everything is overtuned.

Do you not like the LFR for randoms, normal modes for organised guilds, heroics for guilds who want a challenge model? Or do you not think they live up to it?


Not the addressed party here, but:

Hard enough to be challenging and feel rewarding, but easy enough to where the lower difficulty setting doesn't surpass you in content.

Personally I don't mind the current difficulty of T15 normal. In fact, I love it. I want there to be difficult, rewarding Normal modes. I have little interest in heroics so I'm happy to have a difficulty setting that's tuned for me to clear (and farm without getting too bored) in the timeframe of the patch cycle.

I also don't mind LFR as a concept. Casuals should have a chance to see the main PvE content in the game, and I think LFR is a great thing in that regard.

My issue is the pacing set by LFR. My primary reward, and motivator, is the content itself. Loot is always going to be proportionally rewarding to its respective difficulty setting (i.e. heroic gear is no more rewarding to heroic raiders than normal gear is to normal raiders). We don't get meta mounts, exclusive content, nor a title (this time), so the content itself is the only truly reward. A reward that is deftly swept away by LFR. Even if I personally choose to ignore LFR (and I do), I cannot stop my guildies from doing the same, and we lose that sense of accomplishing something big together. I feel that LFR gets the same "true reward" as Normals, but at a fraction of the effort. Not only that, but it immediately cheapens (arguably removes) said reward for Normals.

The current pacing of LFR makes me feel rushed and frustrated at the current progression, which I wouldn't feel at all had LFR not been introduced. I don't mind clearing a boss a week on normal. I do mind LFR "clearing" 3 bosses a week and beating me to the punch. At this point I begin to doubt if Normals will even get see to see Lei Shen on Normal mode before he's unlocked on LFR, even with the current schedule.

I don't think it's unfair to ask LFR players to wait longer for unlocks. Heroic guilds get to see content sooner than Normals because they put in the time and effort. Similarly, Normals ought to get to see content sooner than LFR for the same reasons.
Edited by Odok on 3/15/2013 12:16 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Priest
11520


What's your concept of an appropriately tuned raid, in a world with three difficulty settings? I'm curious, because you've been posting here for years arguing that everything is overtuned.

Do you not like the LFR for randoms, normal modes for organised guilds, heroics for guilds who want a challenge model? Or do you not think they live up to it?


Not the addressed party here, but:

Hard enough to be challenging and feel rewarding, but easy enough to where the lower difficulty setting doesn't surpass you in content.

Personally I don't mind the current difficulty of T15 normal. In fact, I love it. I want there to be difficult, rewarding Normal modes. I have little interest in heroics so I'm happy to have a difficulty setting that's tuned for me to clear (and farm without getting too bored) in the timeframe of the patch cycle.

I also don't mind LFR as a concept. Casuals should have a chance to see the main PvE content in the game, and I think LFR is a great thing in that regard.

My issue is the pacing set by LFR. My primary reward, and motivator, is the content itself. Loot is always going to be proportionally rewarding to its respective difficulty setting (i.e. heroic gear is no more rewarding to heroic raiders than normal gear is to normal raiders). We don't get meta mounts, exclusive content, nor a title (this time), so the content itself is the only truly reward. A reward that is deftly swept away by LFR. Even if I personally choose to ignore LFR (and I do), I cannot stop my guildies from doing the same, and we lose that sense of accomplishing something big together. I feel that LFR gets the same "true reward" as Normals, but at a fraction of the effort. Not only that, but it immediately cheapens (arguably removes) said reward for Normals.

The current pacing of LFR makes me feel rushed and frustrated at the current progression, which I wouldn't feel at all had LFR not been introduced. I don't mind clearing a boss a week on normal. I do mind LFR "clearing" 3 bosses a week and beating me to the punch. At this point I begin to doubt if Normals will even get see to see Lei Shen on Normal mode before he's unlocked on LFR, even with the current schedule.

I don't think it's unfair to ask LFR players to wait longer for unlocks. Heroic guilds get to see content sooner than Normals because they put in the time and effort. Similarly, Normals ought to get to see content sooner than LFR for the same reasons.


I hope this is not how the majority feels, because LFR is truly mash the keyboard content. You ignore a lot of mechanics, carry severely low DPS, heals and undergeared tanks. To me, when I finish LFR I'm not disappointed that I've killed more bosses because, all it feels like I did was kill a 5 man heroic boss. I still have great satisfaction killing the boss on normal.

We didn't get 16/16N until the week before 5.2, but it was gratifying and fulfilling. The tier was great, and considering that we are a 6 hour a week raiding guild, and had issues keeping our roster full, we were happy.

Its all perspective though, I would just try not to let LFR bother you considering how much of a joke it really is.
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90 Troll Hunter
11245
03/15/2013 06:23 AMPosted by Osmeric
At this point, average (from T14) guilds are 0/12 in ToT.


Then those guilds aren't trying, or complete trash like this pug I was in for Jin yesterday. The healers let half the raid die, on the FIRST POOL. That is - by anyone's definition - garbage. If Jin is giving groups any trouble whatsoever, holy crap, they best be prepared beyond Jin, since he's literally Morchok 2.0.

03/15/2013 06:42 AMPosted by Conneri
I'd think the part you are ignoring (not ignorant, just missing the issue) is that due to the number of adds being the same causes any failure to be magnified 2.5x.


I wasn't ignoring anything, the fact of the matter is what you're saying doesn't matter and has nothing to do with Autumni saying "Let me guess, your DPS don't know how to move," which is true. Being 10 man - with the raid comp Tewa has - doesn't stop you from running, especially with at least half your DPS being able to reliably slow/root/stun. That's not taking into account the Hunter who can slow multiple targets while DPSing.

Durumu: Either lower the bosses health OR
Reduce the amount the boss can heal from life drain OR
Make the maze easier (I'd prefer the first two, as the maze is kind of fun, but this fight is still a bit overtuned).


Why lower his HP? if your DPS can't kill him after the second maze....yeah. And why reduce it? just do the damn mechanic properly, the maze is quite easy to see even now, the only thing I absolutely hate about his maze is when it's clearly an open space on my screen, yet I still take 100k ticks in it.
Edited by Naumu on 3/15/2013 1:19 PM PDT
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