Is it just me or is t15 a tad overtuned.

100 Blood Elf Paladin
19545
Why lower his HP? if your DPS can't kill him after the second maze....yeah. And why reduce it? just do the damn mechanic properly, the maze is quite easy to see even now, the only thing I absolutely hate about his maze is when it's clearly an open space on my screen, yet I still take 100k ticks in it.


Because it is overtuned for a normal mode. I apologize if you're too dense to see that.
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100 Troll Hunter
12185
Because it is overtuned for a normal mode. I apologize if you're too dense to see that.


So you fail to give reasons why, then have the audacity to attack my intelligence? lol.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15825
Dear Blizzard,

Raids are just too damn hard and time consuming to do, please just mail me my purples every week. I feel that I'm entitled to them since I pay $15 a month.

Yours truly,

The entitlement generation
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90 Pandaren Shaman
17350
Dear Blizzard,

Raids are just too damn hard and time consuming to do, please just mail me my purples every week. I feel that I'm entitled to them since I pay $15 a month.

Yours truly,

The entitlement generation


You haven't seen Magaera yet have you... lol
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
You haven't seen Magaera yet have you... lol


Would guess from their H Horr achieve that they have.
Edited by Sadiemay on 3/15/2013 1:42 PM PDT
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03/15/2013 01:10 PMPosted by Naumu
the fact of the matter is what you're saying doesn't matter and has nothing to do with Autumni saying "Let me guess, your DPS don't know how to move," which is true. Being 10 man - with the raid comp Tewa has - doesn't stop you from running, especially with at least half your DPS being able to reliably slow/root/stun. That's not taking into account the Hunter who can slow multiple targets while DPSing.

I love how you said something, then said it was true. I don't disagree, but that's great wording. I'm stealing that at some point.

I wasn't defending him at all. I'm sure his group could do better. I'm just pointing out that the tuning is a bit off for Horridon. The tuning on other fights makes them harder in 25, which I'd say either slightly reduce 25 difficulty or increase 10 (Tortos, Durumu). I just think the tuning for 25 man Horridon better matches the expected difficulty curve is all.
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100 Orc Warrior
20665

I hope this is not how the majority feels, because LFR is truly mash the keyboard content. You ignore a lot of mechanics, carry severely low DPS, heals and undergeared tanks. To me, when I finish LFR I'm not disappointed that I've killed more bosses because, all it feels like I did was kill a 5 man heroic boss. I still have great satisfaction killing the boss on normal.

We didn't get 16/16N until the week before 5.2, but it was gratifying and fulfilling. The tier was great, and considering that we are a 6 hour a week raiding guild, and had issues keeping our roster full, we were happy.

Its all perspective though, I would just try not to let LFR bother you considering how much of a joke it really is.


I do not take pleasure in the fact that Normal is more challenging than LFR for the same reason I have little interest in Heroics. Relearning, and re-wiping to, a fight you've already downed with the addition of a mechanic or two and tighter numbers does not appeal to me in the slightest, nor the majority if not entirety of my raid.

For me the thrill is all in the first impression: the first time you see a boss, the first time you see the new rooms or environments, the first time you see the encounter, the first time you kill the boss. I'm glad you're the type of player that truly enjoys the "New Game +" model but that does not mean I'm in some small minority here. I, and no doubt others, prefer to beat things once and mark it done. Doing it again just feels so... artificial. There's a reason why raids in T14 were sick of Terrace before they'd even downed Empress on normal.

Even if you completely disagree with my playstyle, you can't disagree that you would still have more fun if you'd done the Normal version before the LFR. Just because doing LFR first is tolerable does not discount that it's less fun than the alternative.
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90 Worgen Druid
17805
To the OP. No I don't think T15 is overtuned if you compare it against all of WoW's tiers. Nearly everything except Tortos has been a skill check rather than a DPS check. However if you compare T15 to T13 then yes it is overtuned.



On a 25-man, you have more aoe slows to keep the adds from hitting people. On 10-man, you don't.
Oh a 25-man, half your DPS can kite the adds around, leaving the other half to kill them. If you have people kiting the adds on 10-man, there's nobody left to kill them. (Or heal.)
On a 25-man, you have sufficient healers to remove diseases from people who do get them. Woe to the 10-man who brings a healing class that cannot cure disease.


Funny. 10man raiders complain about how all 25man raiding is class stacking... Guess what? Progression 10man raiding is the same thing. If you want to be successful, stop complaining and have a good class comp, good overflow and people with offspecs/alts.

While he is wildly wrong that it is overly difficult to deal with in 10, the point remains that the same amount of adds are up in 10 man vs 25. You will have the same amount of people getting the disease on the third gate in 10s as you do in 25s (with a lot less people to potentially dispel). You can have a few backups on interrupts where a 10 cannot. The fireball on heroic hits like a truck at the 4th door, but 10s have the same amount of fireballs to interrupt as 25s even though 25s have way more interrupt/stun combos.

It also has less to do with class stacking and more to do with just having more possibilities to deal with the same amount of problems.

This isn't to say one side is more difficult than the other. But you can see where the discrepancy exists between formats.

As an aside on dispels: I think this is silly design on Blizzard's part because any class should be able to dispel any door, but it doesn't work that way (even though they've said in the past they don't like this design - they've sided with homogenization to prevent forcing players to bring toons they don't want to play).

HEY GUYS IT'S THE WEEKEND!
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
the average normal group should kill a boss every week and a half.

Groups considering themselves normal and complaining about horridon on release day, were funny.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19545
03/15/2013 01:33 PMPosted by Naumu
Because it is overtuned for a normal mode. I apologize if you're too dense to see that.


So you fail to give reasons why, then have the audacity to attack my intelligence? lol.


The maze mechanic works against many of the mechanics in the fight. It is a mechanic that requires high degrees of responsibility and is a hard pass/fail mechanic. This in itself isn't a problem, as many normal modes have such mechanics (Zor'lok, Sha, etc.).

The problem that arises is that this fight becomes much more difficult if your raid has a person or two that is slower to understand the maze mechanic, as when that person(s) dies, your raid then has a harder time meeting the dps requirement, a harder time splitting the Meteor style light spectrum, and a harder time cycling people through Life Drain (which in itself is finicky because of the moronic trajectory the beam follows).

In short, for a normal mode, it is overtuned, especially when sandwiched between two laughably easy bosses.

Furthermore, I don't need to do anything to your intelligence as you've already proven anything I need to know by insisting that a 20% health nerf to a boss changes nothing.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
In short, for a normal mode, it is overtuned, especially when sandwiched between two laughably easy bosses.


One of which ended up getting nerfed?
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19545
03/15/2013 03:03 PMPosted by Azane
In short, for a normal mode, it is overtuned, especially when sandwiched between two laughably easy bosses.


One of which ended up getting nerfed?


Could you elaborate? I don't know that Ji-kun or Primordius have been nerfed.
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90 Pandaren Monk
18305
03/15/2013 02:49 PMPosted by Isiildur
The problem that arises is that this fight becomes much more difficult if your raid has a person or two that is slower to understand the maze mechanic, as when that person(s) dies, your raid then has a harder time meeting the dps requirement, a harder time splitting the Meteor style light spectrum, and a harder time cycling people through Life Drain (which in itself is finicky because of the moronic trajectory the beam follows).


This is the reason you think it is overtuned?
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100 Troll Hunter
12185
Furthermore, I don't need to do anything to your intelligence as you've already proven anything I need to know by insisting that a 20% health nerf to a boss changes nothing.


That was my mistake, honestly didn't think ~8m HP would make such a difference, shrug.

The problem that arises is that this fight becomes much more difficult if your raid has a person or two that is slower to understand the maze mechanic, as when that person(s) dies, your raid then has a harder time meeting the dps requirement, a harder time splitting the Meteor style light spectrum, and a harder time cycling people through Life Drain (which in itself is finicky because of the moronic trajectory the beam follows).


You should never die to the maze after seeing it 1-2 times, that's outside of the maze itself bugging and showing empty space in which you take damage anyways. Harder time splitting it..? you stick at least 2 people per beam, the tank + 1 other can soak one, that leaves 8 others for 2 other beams. The Life Drain is fine, you stand in front of the person who had it last, take 2 stacks, then someone else take over, it's quite easily one of the easiest parts of the fight. I still don't see how this fight is overtuned outside of people derping themselves. If that equates to a fight being overtuned....then there's surely a ton of overtuned fights.
Edited by Naumu on 3/15/2013 3:12 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19545
The problem that arises is that this fight becomes much more difficult if your raid has a person or two that is slower to understand the maze mechanic, as when that person(s) dies, your raid then has a harder time meeting the dps requirement, a harder time splitting the Meteor style light spectrum, and a harder time cycling people through Life Drain (which in itself is finicky because of the moronic trajectory the beam follows).


This is the reason you think it is overtuned?


I know that, for a normal mode, it is overtuned. It is only a matter of time before it is nerfed.

You should never die to the maze after seeing it 1-2 times, that's outside of the maze itself bugging and showing empty space in which you take damage anyways. Harder time splitting it..? you stick at least 2 people per beam, the tank + 1 other can soak one, that leaves 8 others for 2 other beams. The Life Drain is fine, you stand in front of the person who had it last, take 2 stacks, then someone else take over, it's quite easily one of the easiest parts of the fight. I still don't see how this fight is overtuned outside of people derping themselves. If that equates to a fight being overtuned....then there's surely a ton of overtuned fights.


I'm quite aware of how to do the fight. That doesn't change that it isn't appropriately balanced for normal mode.
Edited by Isiildur on 3/15/2013 3:15 PM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
12185
This is the reason you think it is overtuned?


Apparently personal responsibility is too much and is considered overtuned for normals. I lol'd. :)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
The problem that arises is that this fight becomes much more difficult if your raid has a person or two that is slower to understand the maze mechanic, as when that person(s) dies, your raid then has a harder time meeting the dps requirement, a harder time splitting the Meteor style light spectrum, and a harder time cycling people through Life Drain (which in itself is finicky because of the moronic trajectory the beam follows).


Um, that describes every fight with a pass/fail mechanic to date?
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90 Troll Druid
11615
What should a normal mode be balanced to anyway?

Should it be like DS where a lot of people can get to the end boss that week?

Should it be like T15 where normal mode guilds will have something to do for the patch's life (like T14 was)? And for some heroic mode raiders, takes maybe a week or two to clear it?

I personally like the 2nd one. But that's just me.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19545
03/15/2013 03:17 PMPosted by Arianity
The problem that arises is that this fight becomes much more difficult if your raid has a person or two that is slower to understand the maze mechanic, as when that person(s) dies, your raid then has a harder time meeting the dps requirement, a harder time splitting the Meteor style light spectrum, and a harder time cycling people through Life Drain (which in itself is finicky because of the moronic trajectory the beam follows).


Um, that describes every fight with a pass/fail mechanic to date?


Please inform me of another pass/fail mechanic fight with a moderately tight enrage timer (bonus points if you name one that also heals).

What should a normal mode be balanced to anyway?

Should it be like DS where a lot of people can get to the end boss that week?

Should it be like T15 where normal mode guilds will have something to do for the patch's life (like T14 was)? And for some heroic mode raiders, takes maybe a week or two to clear it?

I personally like the 2nd one. But that's just me.


I'd be happy with linear difficulty instead of giant road blocks mid-dungeon (Megaera and Durumu are the biggest examples of this).
Edited by Isiildur on 3/15/2013 3:21 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Please inform me of another pass/fail mechanic fight with a moderately tight enrage timer (bonus points if you name one that also heals).


Ultraxion, fading light/ hour of twilight.

Not sure why the healing is relevant. Also, it doesn't matter if it's a relatively tight enrage timer. Your point was that losing a person makes mechanics harder. That applies to pretty much any encounter. 2 of 3 of the mechanics you listed aren't aboutt the enrage timer.
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