Is it just me or is t15 a tad overtuned.

90 Blood Elf Paladin
19310
03/15/2013 03:37 PMPosted by Arianity
Please inform me of another pass/fail mechanic fight with a moderately tight enrage timer (bonus points if you name one that also heals).


Ultraxion, fading light/ hour of twilight.

Not sure why the healing is relevant. Also, it doesn't matter if it's a relatively tight enrage timer. Your point was that losing a person makes mechanics harder. That applies to pretty much any encounter. 2 of 3 of the mechanics you listed aren't aboutt the enrage timer.


In the loosest sense of the words, Ultraxion's mechanic is considered pass-fail. I'm not attempting to brush it off as it does fit the definition of being a patchwerk-style dps check with a pass-fail mechanic, but it simply is not comparable to Durumu maze.

Also, everything that I listed has to deal with the enrage timer.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Please inform me of another pass/fail mechanic fight with a moderately tight enrage timer (bonus points if you name one that also heals).


For the crowd you are talking about:
Ultraxion, pre-5.2 Al'Akir, Tsulong, Festergut/Putricide would most likely qualify.

If they're sufficiently worse, you could even work Saurfang into the mix, but that's pushing it (it would have taken a monumental amount of ugh to make Saurfang get to unhealable Marks range on Normal).

Tsulong would even fit your heal criteria since you can consider the damage he takes when you fail a pass/fail mechanic in Day phase as healing. While Putricide wouldn't have technically taken you into a Berserk, losing enough people to let Mutated Plague stack high would have definitely done the job.

In the loosest sense of the words, Ultraxion's mechanic is considered pass-fail. I'm not attempting to brush it off as it does fit the definition of being a patchwerk-style dps check with a pass-fail mechanic, but it simply is not comparable to Durumu maze.


The pass/fail of Durumu's maze comes down to "find the safe spot at the start". It's as complex as Ultraxion's pass/fail, with the added "EFFORT" that when you succeed, you run around for a minute or so. But once you've found the safe spot, you've passed the mechanic unless you do something equivalent to jumping off Ultraxion's platform.

Now, don't get me wrong, if you're saying that the maze graphic should be more intuitive, that's one thing. That's most likely something that should happen anyway.

But if you're saying it's overtuned because a raid can't kill the fight with 2 people down for the majority of the fight, that's just silly.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/15/2013 3:56 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19310
03/15/2013 03:43 PMPosted by Slashlove
Please inform me of another pass/fail mechanic fight with a moderately tight enrage timer (bonus points if you name one that also heals).


For the crowd you are talking about:
Ultraxion, pre-5.2 Al'Akir, Tsulong, Festergut/Putricide would most likely qualify.

If they're sufficiently worse, you could even work Saurfang into the mix, but that's pushing it (it would have taken a monumental amount of ugh to make Saurfang get to unhealable Marks range on Normal).

Tsulong would even fit your heal criteria since you can consider the damage he takes when you fail a pass/fail mechanic in Day phase as healing. While Putricide wouldn't have technically taken you into a Berserk, losing enough people to let Mutated Plague stack high would have definitely done the job.


Ultraxion and Festergut are Patchwerk style fights. Ultraxion has a pass/fail mechanic, but it really isn't comparable. Festergut has no such mechanic. Tsulong has no pass/fail mechanic. Putricides mechanics do fit, but they all take place in different phases, with the intent of the last phase to be a Patchwerk style burn before either raid damage becomes too high or the healing from the tank debuff becomes insurmountable.

I'll agree with Al'akir, but I feel that it's ok for end-bosses to have such mechanical combinations.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Festergut has no such mechanic


Festergut's Pass-Fail mechanic was Spores (and Goo on Heroic). Even on normal, it had positioning requirements that an actual Patchwerk-style fight does not.

Tsulong has several pass-fail mechanics. They include Unstable Sha and Terrorize, both of which failing at will most likely make the boss unkillable for the guilds at the level you are talking about.

Putricide's last phase was hardly a patchwerk style burn, unless by Patchwerk you mean "Here's a phase that actually has mechanics and positioning requirements (Choking Gas, Malleable Goo, expanding slime)".
Edited by Slashlove on 3/15/2013 4:07 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warlock
13775
03/14/2013 09:58 PMPosted by Azulonyx
No you are just a bit undergeared.


Are you insane? That gear level is about what most normal mode raiders were at when 5.2 hit.
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90 Worgen Druid
13790
Um, that describes every fight with a pass/fail mechanic to date?


There's different sorts. On Wind Lord 1 person failing at wind bomb wipes the whole raid (on 25, anyway, don't know if 10 is tuned easier).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19310
03/15/2013 04:03 PMPosted by Slashlove
Festergut has no such mechanic


Festergut's Pass-Fail mechanic was Spores (and Goo on Heroic).

Tsulong has several pass-fail mechanics. They include Unstable Sha and Terrorize, both of which failing at will most likely make the boss unkillable for the guilds at the level you are talking about.

Putricide's last phase was hardly a patchwerk style burn, unless by Patchwerk you mean "Here's a phase that actually has mechanics and positioning requirements (Choking Gas, Malleable Goo, expanding slime)".


The Spores mechanic was just an attempt to differentiate it from Patchwerk. The fight itself is mechanically simple. As far as Tsulong, attacking what is practically the only target and dispelling 3 times a fight is hardly pass/fail.

Malleable Goo and Choking Gas were mechanics that were already in the fight (and outside of heroic you wouldn't die from someone getting them. The slime expanding too much was largely an issue of if your abom-tank can clean up the transition, and shouldn't have been an issue outside of heroic.

03/15/2013 04:09 PMPosted by Autumni
Um, that describes every fight with a pass/fail mechanic to date?


There's different sorts. On Wind Lord 1 person failing at wind bomb wipes the whole raid (on 25, anyway, don't know if 10 is tuned easier).


It hits for about 85% of everyone's health (which means its most likely a wipe, but if healers can pump out throughput cds then you might survive it.)

My main point is that the combination of mechanics on Durumu, in conjunction with his Patchwerk-lite enrage, means that a nerf is in store for him in the future. And for anyone overly obtuse, I have downed the fight, but I recognize that it is above a normal mode encounter.
Edited by Isiildur on 3/15/2013 4:16 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
The Spores mechanic was just an attempt to differentiate it from Patchwerk. The fight itself is mechanically simple


By that logic, the maze is just an attempt to differentiate it from Patchwerk, and Durumu himself is mechanically simple.

As far as Tsulong, attacking what is practically the only target and dispelling 3 times a fight is hardly pass/fail.


Not sure if you understand what pass/fail actually mean.

Malleable Goo and Choking Gas were mechanics that were already in the fight (and outside of heroic you wouldn't die from someone getting them. The slime expanding too much was largely an issue of if your abom-tank can clean up the transition, and shouldn't have been an issue outside of heroic.


You know those same rationalisations are exactly the kind apply to Durumu as well?

You COULD die on Normal from Malleable Goo, but that required being hit by all the Goo into one spot. That wasn't really the arguing point so much as your mischaracterisation of phase 3 as "Patchwerk style burn". Hint: Patchwerk is not about whether mechanics are simple or complex or whether there is a soft enrage. Patchwerk is a straight up stand and burn with NO other mechanics that could make you move, react or do anything - literally the ONLY mechanic being the Berserk (and healing tanks). NO extra action button, no moving, no void zones, nothing.

The existence of a Berserk or DPS requirement (or a tight Berserk) is not Patchwerk-like. Vael had that LONG before Patchwerk.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/15/2013 4:27 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
Id
16045
Irrelevant. There's a reason why Blizzard awarded the Achievements "Ahead of the Curve" because a good portion of guilds/people haven't cleared HoF/ToES pre-5.2. Then the same people who haven't done so want to enter ToT and get 522 gear and find Jin'Rokh to be mad easy because he is undertuned end up getting walled by Horridon complain about difficulty seems a bit ironic. ToT was originally designed for raiders who were farming Sha of Fear/ Empress on normal. In addition, people had access to item upgrades which gave them around an 8 ilvl boost to help up their gear. This could turn their 496ilvl gear to 504. Not trying to sound arrogant but when LFR for ToT requires 480ilvl gear and awards 502, then just by a numbers game, ToT normal awards 522 gear and it expects people in 500ilvl gear to be doing it with a sense of progression. If your guild is at an average ilvl of 490 then ofc you might find some fights a bit more difficult than others.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19310

You know those same rationalisations are exactly the kind apply to Durumu as well?

The existence of a Berserk or DPS requirement (or a tight Berserk) is not Patchwerk-like. Vael had that LONG before Patchwerk.


I cut out a lot because the comment chain was getting long. That said, I apologize if my wording was a misrepresentation of what I meant. I don't necessarily agree with your description of what a Patchwerk-like fight is (the achievement for Vaults listed Gara'jal as Trollwerk prior to live for example).

To get to my point succinctly, Durumu in itself is mechanically a good fight, but it has too harsh of an enrage timer that, unless you overgear it, necessitates everyone remain alive throughout the maze, and either the mechanics of the maze, or the healing from the life drain, or the health of the boss will be nerfed.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
To get to my point succinctly, Durumu in itself is mechanically a good fight, but it has too harsh of an enrage timer that, unless you overgear it, necessitates everyone remain alive throughout the maze


Durumu has a Berserk timer such that, if you have neither the gear nor skill to push spec-appropriate numbers (you don't need world class for this), necessitates that only one person can die in the first 2 Maze phases. You will be extremely hard pressed to call this overtuned, because it has been acceptable tuning for several bosses to this point (until such time as scheduled and/or raidwide, patch-induced nerfs came into play).

Durumu's Berserk timer is light enough that guilds who aren't overgearing it have found it perfectly capable to have all players run out to the ranged safe spot and give up melee damage during those maze phases and still meet the Berserk.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/15/2013 4:53 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19310
I understand that you don't think it's overtuned. That's irrelevant: I'm pointing out that this encounter will most likely be one of the one's that will be nerfed within the next couple of weeks.

Edit: Just wanted to add that your own guild (14/16 heroic) killed the boss a mere 49 seconds before berserk. Based on your guilds progress, I would assume that you should both overgear and overskill a normal mode encounter.

I'd love to see you link a log of a guild that doesn't overgear it having killed it (I'd be impressed that they got past Megaera tbh).
Edited by Isiildur on 3/15/2013 5:03 PM PDT
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90 Troll Hunter
11255
Just wanted to add that your own guild (14/16 heroic) killed the boss a mere 49 seconds before berserk. Based on your guilds progress, I would assume that you should both overgear and overskill a normal mode encounter.


Not sure why they took 9 minutes but we were 3 minutes away from it, and I was mediocre/did semi-bad. Looks like they 2 tanked, which it's perfectly 1 tankable, especially as a Pally, but meh.

I'd love to see you link a log of a guild that doesn't overgear it having killed it (I'd be impressed that they got past Megaera tbh).


What gear level would be "overgearing" the fight this far into the raid?
Edited by Naumu on 3/15/2013 5:44 PM PDT
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Raid participation is in a precarious state now. A great many of the guilds that got stalled in T14 appear to have just given up, progressing neither in T15 normal nor in nerfed T14. They apparently recognize, correctly I think, that Blizzard has tuned them out of the content.


I have to say I am finding Horridon morale breaking. I didn't even think about quitting the game before Cata and the absolute demolishment of my raid. I probably would have stuck around if I'd found a 10-m. But I honestly hoped they'd learned their lesson in T14 and wouldn't stick it to us again and make a raid that we only finished because we spend a lot of weeks extending. Which is, well, demoralizing.

If this is not even the hardest boss in this instance, not even close to being the hardest, it's going to be one Elegon-style fight after another. I did not especially enjoy T14. Apparently they have decided to cater to the hard-mode raiders again and hope all the casual players are content with LFR. I'm not especially interested in that way of playing WoW and it might honestly be time to look for something else to do.

Blizzard it's simple: Normal mode raids have to carry players. Period. They usually have to carry two in 10m and more in 25m. That's what it means to "play with your friends." If we've got to kick people for sucking, then we just aren't casual any more.
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90 Human Paladin
15450
I don't know whether T15 is overtuned or not. All I know is that I am enjoying myself, and thats enough.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19310
03/15/2013 05:38 PMPosted by Naumu
Just wanted to add that your own guild (14/16 heroic) killed the boss a mere 49 seconds before berserk. Based on your guilds progress, I would assume that you should both overgear and overskill a normal mode encounter.


Not sure why they took 9 minutes but we were 3 minutes away from it, and I was mediocre/did semi-bad. Looks like they 2 tanked, which it's perfectly 1 tankable, especially as a Pally, but meh.


They 2 tanked-3 healed. We 2 tank-2 healed (with one undergeared dps). I don't understand how the mortal strike doesn't get to unhealable numbers, but I suppose it worked, and it very well might be the way that normal mode guilds are forced to approach the fight in order to meet the dps check.

03/15/2013 05:38 PMPosted by Naumu
I'd love to see you link a log of a guild that doesn't overgear it having killed it (I'd be impressed that they got past Megaera tbh).


What gear level would be "overgearing" the fight this far into the raid?


502-ish. And it's less about overgearing, and more about this fight being more difficult than either Primordius or Dark Animus, which follow it.
Edited by Isiildur on 3/15/2013 5:56 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
18305
03/15/2013 05:55 PMPosted by Isiildur


What gear level would be "overgearing" the fight this far into the raid?


502-ish. And it's less about overgearing, and more about this fight being more difficult than either Primordius or Dark Animus, which follow it.


If the boss drops gear over 502 then how can you really overgear it?
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
They 2 tanked-3 healed. We 2 tank-2 healed (with one undergeared dps). I don't understand how the mortal strike doesn't get to unhealable numbers, but I suppose it worked, and it very well might be the way that normal mode guilds are forced to approach the fight in order to meet the dps check.


You clear it with bubbles/HoP's. Every Maze phase guarantees the debuff falls off, so you need one clear to pull it off in a cycle.

Edit: Just wanted to add that your own guild (14/16 heroic) killed the boss a mere 49 seconds before berserk. Based on your guilds progress, I would assume that you should both overgear and overskill a normal mode encounter.


That would be because we didn't optimise for damage (2-tank, 3-heal), with no need to.
IIRC, we even forgot to Hero on that pull.

502-ish. And it's less about overgearing, and more about this fight being more difficult than either Primordius or Dark Animus, which follow it.


How is 502-ish in any world rationally "outgearing" Durumu?
Edited by Slashlove on 3/15/2013 6:24 PM PDT
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90 Troll Hunter
11255
How is 502-ish in any world rationally "outgearing" Durumu?


That's what I was thinking lol.
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