Season 12 RBGs, Cheaters, and Rewards.

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90 Pandaren Hunter
10955
If I were a pvper, I'd be flipping tables.

I facepalmed when I armoried one of the guys who plays at the 1550 level in arenas but somehow manage to go from 1600 to 3000+ rbg rating in 2 days. >.>


We're taking a look at armory data as well. It may not be as accurate as we'd like it to be. We'll keep everyone informed should we make any further updates on it though.


Don't have some sort of program that can look at highly rated people and then look at their win/loss ratio and be like: "3k rating... 11 wins 8 losses... that don't look right..."
Once you inspect that guy you can begin to see who he associates with since it is likely anyone he RBGs with is also involved. I'm sure all this data can be data mined. Things like looking at how long matches have taken. What do the scoreboards look like.

The big problem you guys are going to happen is people are going to see this and be like "well they are clearly doing it and not getting punished anyways, maybe I should do it too now". Win trading is nothing new either. I remember hearing about it in wrath. I would of thought you guys would of refined the methods of quickly catching onto this and punish people either mid season or at the end of the season even without the support of players catching it. You guys mods that can just watch the forums and delete posts all day. Maybe towards the end of the season a guy could take a day or work and just look at the PVP top rated listed and just look at the people with really shady records.

The point is it looks like while I'm sure you might have some looking into this the best they can as an organization it doesn't appear that you guys have been taking this subject as seriously as you should. You readily "watch" high end raiders go through PvE content even swiftly punishing those clearly abusing the system. You even seemed to of caught on the LFR abuse in Cata when it first launched. I remember hearing of temp bans for a guild that was using the whole saronite bomb trick vs heroic Lich King. For abuse of win trading it seems you take more of a "bot investigation" approach where you let these people win trade for essentially ever. I know we players can be your greatest source of information of catching bad players at times but this game is full of stats, figures, and things that can be monitored by your systems.
90 Human Death Knight
7580
Blizzard I'll give you a couple of hints on how to pick up people that have been blatantly carried or wintraded.

1. People that go from 0 achieves in RBGs to 2400+ in 1 day with no previous experience in RBGs and little-to-no arena experience.

2. People that get to 2400+ in less than 25 games, indicates they are playing in a team with a much higher mmr eg 3k+ which you pretty much only get from wintrading unless you are an established, world-class competitive pvper eg Mes, Rzn, Abn, Reckful, Godofdamage, Kollektiv, Kaska, Jahmilli, Drizzyx, Bailamos most of whom are Glads or Multi-Glads and I see are back on page 3 - 8 of this list LOL! What is wrong with this picture???

3. People that are getting high level achieves in the wrong order (i.e at the same time because they are going up so fast in cr from the same win) A couple of those examples from the first page of that RBG rating list, went from 1100 to 2100 in 1 bg...this is impossible unless they manipulated the system some how. Maximum amount of rating gained in RBGs has always been 192 pts. Any reps from Blizzard can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

This situation is seriously wrong. A lot of people struggle to get to a decent level of competition only to be outdone by cheaters, and blatantly too. Blizzard I really want to know what you are going to do about this. Giving people the title HOTA/HOTH that DESERVE the title should be your first priority. Working out how you are going to fix the problem for season 13 and beyond should be your second.

Edit: BRING BACK MATCH SUMMARY HISTORY, SERIOUSLY! I'm sure Blizzard can see this data anyway and if they can't something is seriously wrong. Make it so people can look back through the last 20 or 50 matches and allow us to see the match score, the teams ratings and the rating gained/lost. This would also help people putting together RBG teams see if their potential teammate is a cheater or not, and if it looks dubious the individual can explain themselves. I've run with plenty of "2400" people that cannot do the basics properly and have obviously been carried or wintraded. And this leads to easily preventable losses and a lot of us wasting our time until we boot them and try and find someone competent to fill their spot. Please bring back this feature.
Edited by Erunbauko on 3/14/2013 9:45 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Mage
17220
I don't PVP anymore (done maybe 2 RBG's total), but I've seen this win-trading description thrown around, but kinda confused.

What exactly is being done? Someone queues up as a group and forfeits so their rating goes down? I thought if your rating went down you got placed against people with a lower ranking and the farther apart the opposing rating, the less points (MMR I guess?) they got? How exactly then do people (with some of the screen shots posted) have a team rating of 500 or below be affecting those with 2200+?
90 Human Mage
20985

Don't have some sort of program that can look at highly rated people and then look at their win/loss ratio and be like: "3k rating... 11 wins 8 losses... that don't look right..."
Once you inspect that guy you can begin to see who he associates with since it is likely anyone he RBGs with is also involved. I'm sure all this data can be data mined. Things like looking at how long matches have taken. What do the scoreboards look like.


We really don't know if they have a program that does this kind of thing or not but we can be sure of a few things. If they are using one, it's not doing it's job properly, OR it is raising the proper red flags but they are not being investigated properly and/or there is not enough evidence to prove what has happened even though it intuitively obvious to the casual observer. If there is not enough evidence to prove guilt, then changes need to be implemented so there is more of an audit trail so to speak for players participating in rated pvp.
This whole "well fix it next patch/expansion" attitude Blizzard seems to have lately is getting annoying.

He shouldn't have to wait. He earned the title now, not for next season. Why should he have to go through the grind again, hoping that you guys will do your job this time, to get something he has by all rights already earned.
90 Pandaren Hunter
10955
Since it seems people are becoming very upset over it, and it is possible more may flock to this kind of unfair play. That maybe it would be in the best interest of the game to become more strict on who they ban or at least red flag, and investigate. They don't exactly need a full proof case to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Blizzard can make up the rules, and if you look like and sound like a win trader you get a vacation. Put some fear in these guy's lives or something.
Hell, you could pull what the cycling commission did to Armstrong and everyone else. Take back all the rewards and don't give "Hero of the Horde/Alliance" to anyone that season.
90 Tauren Druid
13405
i dont even pvp, in fact i lothe that aspect of the game, but this is truly sad to see. i cant believe blizz can not fix this problem.


That is what I am thinking. I don´t pvp for this very reason.. in every game, in the history of video games, anything involving pvp, and especially score-based pvp is abused beyond being worth trying.

If you start pvping, you have to know that without cheating, you will be below average. If you enter a ladder system, the ´game´ is more about gaming the system then actually winning matches.

The only time pvp is fun (for me) is when it is fairly casual and without real stakes. ( like normal BGs) because at least then, the only people cheating are bots

But yeah, that big ban thing they did last month was an absolute joke. You know what happened? Some of the most famous pvpers, the ones with the websites... were banned.. you know.. the ones that the devs ´talk´ to about balance issues... those 3200 players... That is the ONLY reason the bans were reverted, because so many of the ´best´ pvpers who had the ear of the devs got caught up in it.... so suddenly, we get the line about the ´too many false positives, so we had to revert´... bullcrap.. I watched 2 of the famous pvpers go ´dark´for those days..
90 Pandaren Hunter
10955
I remember call of duty with all the people with hacked accounts. So many people had some asinine number of experience and was the highest prestige level. I never understood why you would do that. You are literally cheating yourself out of the experience.

Win trading is just dumb. It cheapens the value of the reward you received because you did not earn it. You cheated. No one is going to take you seriously when they know you cheated for it too.
90 Pandaren Priest
5150
I'm trying to remain calm about this... deep breaths...

Are you telling me 2500 RBG rating isn't enough for Hero of the Horde/Alliance?

Are you telling me that these kids here ~~> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/battlegrounds/?page=1 ... that have records like 11-7, 16-2, 13-4, 22-12, 17-7, 9-8... these people are getting their Hero title? They are getting their title with 9 wins and 8 losses?...

I make videos at http://www.youtube.com/WoWisSerious. I worked my rear off for my rating and won many tough games along the way. But, the 9 win 8 loss kid gets his title and I get to try again. You do know that April 1st is still 20 days away, right?


We did take action against those we were able to identify as exploiting the system as well as [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7789209219"]taking action [/url]to fix the means by which some of these players were doing so. We also know that there are still concerns from the community. We’ve been discussing ways to address this for the future and will continue to keep an eye on things from our end. Hopefully, we’ll be able to provide more details on our plans at a later point in time.

I know you're frustrated and I'm sorry you feel this way. Hopefully we'll be able to do more in the future to address this for you and get you back to feeling better about your PvP accomplishments.

Typical blue response
85 Undead Mage
11140


So in other words, if you can't beat them...


Report them. I'm sure that's what you were going to say. Seriously though, we are keeping an eye on things and will take action should we need to. In the meantime, we really do need people to report players who are abusing the system etc.

And there you have it , to bad they get titles and you don't , you just need to have faith they will catch them next season or the season after.


This isn't what we're saying either. We're saying we caught those who we positively identified as abusing the system. We're planning to continue to work toward ways to address things such as this and will. I wanted to at least take some time to let people know that this wasn't falling on deaf ears.


What I want to know is why should we care if it seems that you don't? You say you can't give out specific information because it would tip off and notify those who you are trying to prosecute, but that tactic is overused and not a valid reason for giving nothing to us. You keep not giving us specific information when there is so much wrong on the game, it'll blow up in your face. Go ahead and think i'm over-exaggerating or over-generalizing the situation, and see what happens. Look at the forums now, compared to 2 years ago, and do some math and then get back to me.
90 Undead Rogue
9835
I just think it's sad that the official RBG ladder so proudly displays wintraders... and has been that way for who knows how long

Go look at it yourself - people @ 3200 rating with 20 games played - does that sound legit?
Look up their armory and if they went from 0 - 2400 in one night... I mean really what else do you need as evidence?

What's even more sad is that half of those people are wearing the title too
90 Pandaren Monk
16920
rated pvp is a joke.
pvp is a joke
joke
pvp.
90 Undead Warlock
10425
I'm trying to remain calm about this... deep breaths...

Are you telling me 2500 RBG rating isn't enough for Hero of the Horde/Alliance?

Are you telling me that these kids here ~~> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/battlegrounds/?page=1 ... that have records like 11-7, 16-2, 13-4, 22-12, 17-7, 9-8... these people are getting their Hero title? They are getting their title with 9 wins and 8 losses?...

I make videos at http://www.youtube.com/WoWisSerious. I worked my rear off for my rating and won many tough games along the way. But, the 9 win 8 loss kid gets his title and I get to try again. You do know that April 1st is still 20 days away, right?


We did take action against those we were able to identify as exploiting the system as well as [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7789209219"]taking action [/url]to fix the means by which some of these players were doing so. We also know that there are still concerns from the community. We’ve been discussing ways to address this for the future and will continue to keep an eye on things from our end. Hopefully, we’ll be able to provide more details on our plans at a later point in time.

I know you're frustrated and I'm sorry you feel this way. Hopefully we'll be able to do more in the future to address this for you and get you back to feeling better about your PvP accomplishments.


Thank you for the response. I do appreciate knowing that you guys acknowledge that this was, and still is, a problem.

At this point I don't know what I expect from Blizzard, if that's even the right way to phrase it. I don't know Blizzard systems, cheating detection tools, or staffed departments. I wish there was a way to fix the exploit that allows WinTrading to continue. It would be nice if at the very moment the queue pops, you're "locked in" to the game already and will lose your rating/mmr if you back out.

It would also be nice if a little more time was spent reviewing the titles earned during Season 12. Take another week or two to locate the accounts you feel don't deserve a title. Give more titles out to those that worked hard for them. Ban these people you feel are in the wrong, and send a strong message throughout the community that cheating will not be tolerated. Being the realist that I am, I know people will still cheat as long as the exploit exists, so that should really be on the to-do list. If not, this season isn't going to be any better than the last one. Again, 2 out of 5 of my games today were against WinTraders already.

http://i.imgur.com/Lu8geG9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QUCSEa8.png

Again, thank you for your time responding and letting us know that you at least hear us. Many of the posts in this thread, especially after you commented, have really hit the nail on the head as far as my feelings go.
Edited by Serious on 3/14/2013 7:59 PM PDT
85 Dwarf Hunter
8525
Man, tough crowd.

In reading this I almost get the feeling the blue poster wants to say more but is being as professional as his profession demands of him. (may just be bs'ing but i bought it).
90 Human Mage
13585
A couple things. Ratings should be hidden the first few weeks or you have to play a certain amount of games to have your rating actually count (say 50 games, if you play less than that your rating and wins/loses never appears and anything you've done becomes null and void), same with wins and loses. Internally tracked and once a person reaches a certain rating they are flagged for a internal review.
90 Blood Elf Priest
9855
If I were a pvper, I'd be flipping tables.

I facepalmed when I armoried one of the guys who plays at the 1550 level in arenas but somehow manage to go from 1600 to 3000+ rbg rating in 2 days. >.>


We're taking a look at armory data as well. It may not be as accurate as we'd like it to be. We'll keep everyone informed should we make any further updates on it though.


still waiting after months of bots i reported on my server who mie/herb/bg bot 24/7 yet are still here doing it your team sucks okay? cause not once have i ever seen any bots banned i have friends who admit botting who run mine/herb bots 24/7 and they are still here after cata when they ruined our server ecom back then having thousands of stacks every day or 2
90 Human Warlock
7405
I'm trying to remain calm about this... deep breaths...

Are you telling me 2500 RBG rating isn't enough for Hero of the Horde/Alliance?

Are you telling me that these kids here ~~> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/battlegrounds/?page=1 ... that have records like 11-7, 16-2, 13-4, 22-12, 17-7, 9-8... these people are getting their Hero title? They are getting their title with 9 wins and 8 losses?...

I make videos at http://www.youtube.com/WoWisSerious. I worked my rear off for my rating and won many tough games along the way. But, the 9 win 8 loss kid gets his title and I get to try again. You do know that April 1st is still 20 days away, right?


We did take action against those we were able to identify as exploiting the system as well as [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7789209219"]taking action [/url]to fix the means by which some of these players were doing so. We also know that there are still concerns from the community. We’ve been discussing ways to address this for the future and will continue to keep an eye on things from our end. Hopefully, we’ll be able to provide more details on our plans at a later point in time.

I know you're frustrated and I'm sorry you feel this way. Hopefully we'll be able to do more in the future to address this for you and get you back to feeling better about your PvP accomplishments.

hahahahahah
this is seriously the dumbest blue post.

Im sure if someone was exploiting dragon slaying you would fix that as fast as possible.

Probably the most poor excuse of a company ive ever seen.

Sorry for your loss op, really sucks.
85 Undead Rogue
13075
Someone who gets 3100 RBG rating with ~20 games played. Can you really not smell something fishy here?

Seriously?
Edited by Nesmothon on 3/14/2013 8:27 PM PDT
90 Human Mage
13585
hahahahahah
this is seriously the dumbest blue post.

Im sure if someone was exploiting dragon slaying you would fix that as fast as possible.

Probably the most poor excuse of a company ive ever seen.

Sorry for your loss op, really sucks.


Not a dumb post at all. It's a post that very clearly says that Blizzard understands there is still an issue, that they are still looking at things and that they hope future changes address some if not most of the current issues. What it doesn't say is if anything will be done about the current issues.

Please understand that CM's have to be careful about how they word things, even if it means the posts come off sounding rather vague it's better than the storm that might erupt if something is worded in such a way as to even remotely hint at an action or promise being made.
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