Blizzard, your daily model hurts healers.

100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
I have a feeling you will be told you probably shouldn't be playing a paladin healer.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12825
Oh, yeah, I forgot:

- Don't play a paladin.

I'm actually working on that one. Priest#2 is up and coming. Doesn't make it a good solution, though. If I actually liked playing a holy paladin, rerolling wouldn't be such an easy choice. (It's still not easy with the alt gearing situation in MoP.)
Edited by Kaels on 4/2/2013 12:52 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
3940
OR.

I find tricks

like making the shado-pan NPC's do all the work....jump in on other people fighting the big guys...Shado-pan NPCS are my favorite new trick though. They take down those mogu in no time.

They even helped me kill the devilsaur
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92 Blood Elf Paladin
10925
OR.

I find tricks

like making the shado-pan NPC's do all the work....jump in on other people fighting the big guys...Shado-pan NPCS are my favorite new trick though. They take down those mogu in no time.

They even helped me kill the devilsaur


Yeah those shado-pan NPCs are great. I wish they would follow me around all the time. Holy Prism is kind of a secret weapon, because if it bounces to an npc they will start to help you, whereas otherwise they just kind of stand around and enjoy the show.

Honestly the more I think about it the better it seems to me to just give healers a hirable npc. They could easily limit when and where you could summon it and thus it could be made to not upset class balance at all. Obviously they wouldn't do this because it would be kind of stupid.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8685


Honestly the more I think about it the better it seems to me to just give healers a hirable npc. They could easily limit when and where you could summon it and thus it could be made to not upset class balance at all. Obviously they wouldn't do this because it would be kind of stupid.


That's a slippery slope. Then DPS specs would want a to have a Tank hireling and Tanks would want a DPS or Healing NPC. Makes every class a Pet Class and further moves the game away from EQ style grouping synergy.

I see the issue many of you have with the present system and agree that it appears unfair to Healers since we certainly can't heal mobs to death. Tanks and DPS get stronger in Group content as x-pacs age which also means they're stronger in Solo content. The same doesn't hold for healers.

So many design decisions over the past few years have marginalized healers because the devs are pushing solo play more often than not. We're very far from the glory days of MMO's it seems. The new paradigm seems to be a hybrid between a solo RPG and a social network where less and less gameplay requires any need to group.

I think that's going to bite Blizzard in the rear down the line since the main draw of MMO's came from the social interactions via group play. Forced socialization sounds like a bad thing but it's what took us from UO to EQ to the unstoppable monster of WOW. The social pressures kept people logging on and paying for their sub. Now you can drop the game for months and miss out on very little.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
0
Tanks and healers are expected to have DPS specs for raiding, for dailies.... for pretty much everything. DPS just have to worry about themselves.

*shrug* Blizzard expects tanks and healers to have multiple fully functional sets. They obviously balance their raids around it, they obviously balance the game around it. If you want to heal or tank, just get used to needing to spend twice as much on gear.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7275
OR.

I find tricks

like making the shado-pan NPC's do all the work....jump in on other people fighting the big guys...Shado-pan NPCS are my favorite new trick though. They take down those mogu in no time.

They even helped me kill the devilsaur


Yeah those shado-pan NPCs are great. I wish they would follow me around all the time. Holy Prism is kind of a secret weapon, because if it bounces to an npc they will start to help you, whereas otherwise they just kind of stand around and enjoy the show.

Honestly the more I think about it the better it seems to me to just give healers a hirable npc. They could easily limit when and where you could summon it and thus it could be made to not upset class balance at all. Obviously they wouldn't do this because it would be kind of stupid.


would love this and it sounds like a pretty good fix
Edited by Jarshie on 4/6/2013 6:14 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12810
04/04/2013 11:27 PMPosted by Semira
Tanks and healers are expected to have DPS specs for raiding, for dailies.... for pretty much everything. DPS just have to worry about themselves.


My tanks have healer offspecs.

I don't count my blood dk as a tank for the purpose of dailies regarding dps, just like I don't really categorize this toon in with healers that don't have an option similar to atonement. These two are almost ridiculously efficient and effective at having no downtime.

By contrast, my holy pally, who's prot OS is low geared, doesn't do dailies unless there's guildies doing them.
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100 Human Paladin
15935
I think that it should be noted that the original complaint isn't really applicable to most "healers".

Its specific to paladins who do not like to play ret.

Holy paladin and prot paladin solo questing is painfully slow. Prot has the ability to gather up a cluster and grind them down (slowly, did I mention slowly?). Holy, even glyphed right, is a little insane to go it alone, particularly if you have many mobs to kill at once.. which never happens, right?

Usually I do my dailies in ret. Occasionally I put myself through the misery of doing them in holy or prot. I don't recommend it to any but those who love pain or REALLY hate ret. Yes, my ret gear is lousy; a real concern on a PvP server. I've gotten used to corpse runs. Because they beat trying to kill stuff as holy, no matter how much better my holy gear is.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
My biggest complaint about it is things like the solo scenarios because hitting lvl 90 and you have the option of doing it in 437 gear, which means a lot of zerging from just running out of health. This is using my offspec dps to try to beat it.

I pulled a bunch of gear and tried it on a different toon with about an ilvl 450 on my holy paladin. It was painful how long it took. I didn't die but it probably took 15 minutes to kill each miniboss.

I'm definitely a person of the mind that you should use a DPS spec. The only problem is that as the expansion progresses, it's going to be harder and harder to play catch up to the current content.


I agree very much with this. The time it really hurts you the most is when you first get to 90, which also happens to be the time that you most need to go out and do these things.

Sure, dailies aren't a problem for a hpal with 500+ ilvl to nuke down with shock and word glyphs and prism.

They definitely are a problem for a new 90 that's trying to nuke down 500k+ hp isle daily mobs with 20k denounce spam, though.

That's not even to go into being an undergeared hpal with gimped shock healing and no EF when pvp happens.
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100 Undead Priest
6395
The way it is now no one is missing out if they choose to play a healing or tank spec. They miss out if they refuse to also have a damage spec. If you absolutely don't want to play a damage spec and want to play all content, then Warcraft is not the game for you because a major portion of content is designed for damage specs. Your game experience is a result of your own choices.


You just said it again, If you don't want to play a DPS spec then leave the game. So you're saying tanks and healers should not be tanks and healers...just be DPS. The game was made for all these specs, and the argument you keep making doesn't hold water.
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92 Blood Elf Paladin
10925
04/07/2013 07:02 AMPosted by Bantor
The way it is now no one is missing out if they choose to play a healing or tank spec. They miss out if they refuse to also have a damage spec. If you absolutely don't want to play a damage spec and want to play all content, then Warcraft is not the game for you because a major portion of content is designed for damage specs. Your game experience is a result of your own choices.


You just said it again, If you don't want to play a DPS spec then leave the game. So you're saying tanks and healers should not be tanks and healers...just be DPS. The game was made for all these specs, and the argument you keep making doesn't hold water.


The truth is that he is kind of right though. Most of the game is clearly designed for DPS. Daily quests, scenarios, leveling is all obviously balanced for damage dealers.

If you look at it logically and not with your personal preference what benefit is there to being a tank or healer? In all aspects of the game you have to work harder for the same reward of a damage dealer. In solo play you either aren't as effective or you have to manage and use a different set of gear/spec. In group play you shoulder more responsibility (tanks/healers can't just go afk whenever, etc...). The only consolation is shorter queues for raids and 5-mans.
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100 Human Paladin
14720
I get sad when I see DPS killing mobs in 1/4th the time it takes me to kill something.

Tank/Holy spec's
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
03/18/2013 08:31 PMPosted by Morenn
but I would hope they offered another opportunity at the tokens aside from daily quests.


You can get tokens for pet battles.


also, this would be great if there wasn't like literally some jerk sitting there with a knob nerfing the charms from pet battles worse and worse until nobody even thinks about doing pet battles for charms
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8685
I get sad when I see DPS killing mobs in 1/4th the time it takes me to kill something.

Tank/Holy spec's


I love doing dailies on my Monk Tank. Killing 1 v 1 is painfully slow but why would anyone ever do that? A Tank spec can gather up toms of mobs and AoE them down and walk away at full health. A Tank can also be sloppy about running around the Isle because they can solo just about any Elite.

I guess as an old time player who was ecstatic when they added Dual spec I can't fathom wanting to stay in a Heal spec for solo content where killing mobs is the name of the game. It's not like you would even be playing the same way as you do when healing group content so what's the attraction?

We're never going back to a Trinity model for open world content so I don't see how healers can be made viable for said content without killing balance.
Edited by Indyana on 4/9/2013 7:20 AM PDT
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also, this would be great if there wasn't like literally some jerk sitting there with a knob nerfing the charms from pet battles worse and worse until nobody even thinks about doing pet battles for charms


The tinfoil hat is strong in this one.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
04/02/2013 09:07 PMPosted by Wasselin
Honestly the more I think about it the better it seems to me to just give healers a hirable npc.


Better yet, give everyone a hirable npc and let them choose what role it is. FFXI has already done this, but you can't use the npc in certain areas and it counts against the party size limit while being weaker than a player (so you hardly ever want to use it in a party unless there are only 2-3 people and sometimes even then it isn't worthwhile). Diablo III doesn't even have roles and they still let you have a follower when soloing (they can have minor heal or cc abilities too).

Then they could tone down dps self-heals or make world mobs hit harder while still letting dps solo (by choosing a tank or healer npc). (Of course, if dps specs can pick a dps follower and still live, then they would be even faster, but the size of the gap might shrink. Or Blizzard could just not allow choosing an npc of the same role as yourself.) Tanks and healers could take a dps and kill faster, or tanks could take a healer and vice versa for slow fights but a lot of endurance (by solo standards).

The Shado-Pan tanks are awful, in my experience. No matter what role you are you will pull hate off them early and often. The dps npcs are pretty decent though, at least better than nothing.

So many design decisions over the past few years have marginalized healers because the devs are pushing solo play more often than not. We're very far from the glory days of MMO's it seems.


WoW has always been like that compared to other MMOs and some people even think it was part of its runaway success (aside from the blizzard name and connection to the rest of the warcraft universe). At the time, in most other MMOs it wasn't practical to try to solo to max level, or at best, a few classes that were unusually good at soloing could do it.

This topic seems to come up a lot with regard to holy paladins, though, to the point that they may actually be an exception to WoW's overall "anyone can solo most content" philosophy. The glyphs that allow them to nuke (Denounce, Holy Shock, Harsh Words) should probably be baselined (and have the drawback removed from Glyph of Holy Shock). Healers aren't going to want to spend major glyph slots on things that make them do more damage, and other healer specs don't need to. I don't need to spec into Moonfire or Wrath or Killer Instinct or Hurricane (something I don't think Holy can match even *with* glyphs). My shaman alt doesn't have to spec into Lightning Bolt, Flame Shock, Lightning Shield, even Lava Burst and Chain Lightning are baseline for resto.

Taking time and resources to cast a nuke is enough of a drawback to keep healers from doing it most of the time unless they have something like Atonement or Eminence, let alone if it shares CD with a heal or is a dual-purpose spell with a CD (both Holy Shock and Glyph of Harsh Words already fall into this, which is why there's really no reason to make them also cost major glyph slots). Every other healer shares in some offensive abilities of their class's other specs for free, or even gets some of their own.

Alternatively they could have a specific stance or mode (for paladins, that would probably be a seal) that unlocks better nuking, but making them change glyphs between healing and nuking modes seems excessive.

I'm not saying give them the damage output of actual dps specs, but something on par with chakra:chastise or fistweaving seems reasonable enough.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8685

Taking time and resources to cast a nuke is enough of a drawback to keep healers from doing it most of the time unless they have something like Atonement or Eminence, let alone if it shares CD with a heal or is a dual-purpose spell with a CD (both Holy Shock and Glyph of Harsh Words already fall into this, which is why there's really no reason to make them also cost major glyph slots). Every other healer shares in some offensive abilities of their class's other specs for free, or even gets some of their own.

Alternatively they could have a specific stance or mode (for paladins, that would probably be a seal) that unlocks better nuking, but making them change glyphs between healing and nuking modes seems excessive.

I'm not saying give them the damage output of actual dps specs, but something on par with chakra:chastise or fistweaving seems reasonable enough.


I'd prefer to keep the Glyphs for those that like the playtsyle and instead allow Holy to have more Melee damage ala Monks. They are a melee class after all and it always semed odd to have a Plate wearing Warrior akin to the old D&D Cleric sitting at ranged and casting.

Holy Pally's already have Crusader Strike. It just needs some adjustments so Healing Pally's don't rely on it for HP generation and it needs a HP damage finisher. The Monk Jab/TP mechanic comes to mind.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
04/09/2013 07:18 AMPosted by Morenn
also, this would be great if there wasn't like literally some jerk sitting there with a knob nerfing the charms from pet battles worse and worse until nobody even thinks about doing pet battles for charms


The tinfoil hat is strong in this one.


lol, it may not be that literal, but if you've done it a lot it's really clearly been as if charms from pets were some limited resource that started out quite bountiful and have slowly dried up to barely existing
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
04/09/2013 09:41 AMPosted by Indyana
Holy Pally's already have Crusader Strike.


Doesn't that scale with AP rather than SP? I.e. does terrible damage you won't even notice if you're wearing int gear? Priests, shaman and druids all have SP-scaled nukes that are available in their healing specs.

Now, I suppose they could change that by giving holy paladins a seal that gives them SP > AP conversion (or adding this to the existing melee seals, which I assume are otherwise no use to holy), and then they can melee like a mistweaver or a restocat, that could work too.

I still think it wouldn't hurt to have some only-moderately-bad nukes baseline rather than glyph dependance, though.

I thought they were intended to be a frontline healer all along - IIRC, they even had a melee-for-mana mechanic at one point (albeit far weaker than enhance shaman, or it would be impossible to go OOM). What ever happened to that?
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