Sub Rogues Off hand weapon discussion

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90 Human Rogue
7440
First off there maybe not much to discuss however I was just curious, why a dagger? Why not a sword or an axe? I realize there is of course the speed difference, and the fact that only combat has increased offhand damage. Those things being said though would a larger 1 hand be better, or does the fact that they don't have the damage amp from combat and are far slower than daggers make that big of a difference?

Edit: I used to always think offhand dagger was good for shivs but obviously that doesn't matter now.
Edited by Karnifica on 3/19/2013 3:57 PM PDT
1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
There isn't a huge difference. A fast OH will yield more DPS due to more poison applications.

Increased off-hand damage actually has nothing to do with it since weapon speed doesn't affect DPS.

EDIT: weapon speed doesn't affect weapon DPS
Edited by Cloaked on 3/19/2013 4:04 PM PDT
90 Human Rogue
7440
Well that was more informative than it should have been for me. I should have realized dps is white swings and of course damage is for abilities, therefore it would not be effect by the increase talent in combat.

I also didn't know that poisons were application was just chance on hit. I had thought that it depended on what weapon hit... however I see that is a bit foolish now since you actually don't apply poisons to weapons directly anymore.

Thanks. Any other feedback is appreciated.
Edited by Karnifica on 3/19/2013 4:21 PM PDT
90 Undead Rogue
7385
iirc, Poison procs were normalized in MoP no matter what your weapon speed was, so a slow weapon shouldn't effect it.

I think the general consensus is that if you play sub, get two daggers so you can play Assassin as your offspec.
90 Human Rogue
7440
iirc, Poison procs were normalized in MoP no matter what your weapon speed was, so a slow weapon shouldn't effect it.

I think the general consensus is that if you play sub, get two daggers so you can play Assassin as your offspec.


This is a good point. Assassination seems to be much easier to play with low end gear. My overall damage seems to be quite a bit higher.
100 Orc Rogue
17500
A slow offhand can work - but is inferior to a dagger. I played PvE Sub during T14 content with a slow offhand (made it easy to swap between combat and sub), but even being an Orc (more expertise from fists/axes), a dagger would have given me approximately ~1.5% more DPS according to shadowcraft. I'd assume around ~2% difference between a dagger and slow hand for anyone else.

My figures could be very wrong, so take it with a grain of salt. But I think 2% is a generally good enough ballpark between the two types of weapons. Thus, for any casual - it may not matter, especially if you swap between combat and sub.

EDIT: As mentioned, its better to go dual daggers (of course) if you swing between mut and sub... which I started to do at the start of 5.2.
Edited by Whiteytighty on 3/19/2013 5:02 PM PDT
91 Undead Rogue
8620
03/19/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Relikar
iirc, Poison procs were normalized in MoP no matter what your weapon speed was, so a slow weapon shouldn't effect it.
Since when? The changes to poisons were the opposite of what you're saying.
Rather than changing the cph poisons to a ppm, they changed the ppm to a cph.
Therefore in MoP every poison will proc more frequently from a fast weapon.

That's why for Combat slow weapons aren't always the way to go for sure, if poisons were normalized then the added damage from Spree would be the only difference. This is not the case.
Edited by Kiljagen on 3/19/2013 7:09 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Rogue
10620
A slow OH would have to be a major upgrade to consider it over a dagger. The 2% figure mentioned by Whitey is probably a good benchmark, at a minimum.
91 Undead Priest
4975
As sub a slow OH means less chances to crit with it which means less combo points from Honor Among Theives. Just sayin..
90 Human Rogue
7440
As sub a slow OH means less chances to crit with it which means less combo points from Honor Among Theives. Just sayin..


Well made point again. Thank you all, in the end I decided daggers like every other rogue, I was just curious on the matter. Thank you all again for entertaining my questions instead of just being like dAGgerzs Noob.
1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
HaT only procs from abilities
90 Undead Rogue
7385
HaT only procs from abilities


While this is true, a poison crit still procs them iirc.
90 Night Elf Rogue
10620
In groups of 10+, Honor Among Thieves procs will occur like clockwork without regard to your own abilities. Your own abilities and their crits is only an issue for HaT procs in 5-mans or smaller groups, or solo.
100 Human Rogue
11785
Hate to necro an old thread, but since this topic clearly shows up top on google(even in2015)...i figured id share what I know now.

Im still running tests on it.(due to "Sensei" a famous youtube rogue) using 2xdaggers. As I write this i'm still running tests on this very subject trying to find what the difference really is. I've come to these conclusions thus far.
(ilvl to equal ilvl based).
Hemorrhage, Ambush get a +40%dmg increase(only on the main hand) when a dagger is equipped, makes a dagger on par with a 1-handerwith these 2 abilities as far as dmg goes.

Backstab(requires 1 MH dagger obviously) and does not regard the offhand dmg at all(aside from the agi increase obviously).(ilvl to ilvl)

Eviscerate, Death from Above, rupture, and crimson tempest(are fixed finishers based only on the actual atk power, (so is fan of knives but thats not a finisher) and mastery for the subs(increases these finishers). but they all are what is called fixed abilities so they go off atk power and do not care about the dmg on the char screen.

but newayz dagger in offhandvs.1hander....Since a sub has no special passive for the offhand(like a Frost DK). My thesis is as far as abilities go( none of em care. U add a 1hander(using ilvl700 weapons as the tester) for a +250 Dmg increase(for the 1hand in the offhand slot).

So my verdict thus far is that realistically(for 2015 6.2) is this.
1. Dagger in the mainhand is neccessary for backstab and contrary to what icyveins says, it doesnt get switched out becuz of unbackstabbable boss(hemorrage adds +40% dmg to daggers to offset this decrease even though this boss cannot be backstabbed, and can still be shadow danced and ambushed(+40%dmg with a dagger equipped) which means taking the time to switch to a 1hander for mainhand=useless time spent.
2. +40% dagger dmg with Hemorrhage, Ambush does not stack with offhand becuz no subtlety rogue variable ability cares about the offhand..so that means just having the 2xdagger just for the sake of these 2 abililities is useless.(offhand dagger=+0%) and obviously MH dagger=+40% dmg with Ambush and hemorrhage.

So the final verdict.
it doesn't really matter much. Use can use a dagger in the offhand and you can use a 1hander in the offhand.(we're talking +250 dmg only here for the 1hander in the offhand slot and it only affects the auto attacks, no applicable abilities to date apply to subtlety rogues make this anymore substantial).
Personally I prefer a 1hand weapon for the offhand(thinking of trying deeper with a dagger in offhand for more research) but assasination wishing to offspec into sub do not need to buy an 1handed weapon for the offhand.(they can offspec w/o cost).
and
combat rogues wishing to offspec into subtlety sorry but your going to need a 1handed dagger for your Main Hand.(because of Backstab).
Hope this info helps others.(and it is a work in progress research)
Peace.
Edited by Armayekk on 11/7/2015 7:48 PM PST
100 Undead Priest
21615
Sick Neco!
100 Human Rogue
9260
I've always rolled a 1hander. It makes no diff
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