Ret DPS and Simulation Craft

100 Tauren Paladin
6895
Hey all, I haven't been playing wow for very long (about 3 months) but lately I've been sort of disappointed with my DPS... I know that ret are in the lower to middle part of the pack, but still.

I did a test on a target dummy a bit ago for 5 minutes and did about 60-65k dps, but my ilvl is 493, and I feel like that's not very good. I have researched the proper priority of our spells and abilities, so I'm 99% I'm doing those correctly, but it's just not yielding very good results.

Perhaps I should be delaying some of my cooldowns so that they overlap more? I already do this if I do not have to wait a reasonably long time to line them up, so I'm unsure.

Also, how accurate is simulation craft? Obviously it's just a simulation and you can't perfectly recreate a human playing, but for the stat weights, it said that str was about 3.6, and haste was 1.6. I've read that at the point where I am, 2 haste should be worth more DPS than 1 str, however this does not reflect that.

I do realize my weapon is only a 483 weapon (sha touched gem though), and doesn't have dancing steel, plus I don't have any profession bonuses right now, but I still feel a bit underpowered. I know there are rets who can pull good dps so I was just wondering if I'm missing anything. Could latency affect my dps that amount, should I perhaps adjust some settings?

Thanks for reading, and I would appreciate any help!
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100 Tauren Paladin
6895
And my simulated dps was about 92k, just throwing that out there.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20935
If you didn't change any of simcraft's default settings you will never get anywhere remotely close to what it says by hitting a dummy. Latency, boss type, player skill, and every buff and debuff.

Stat weights aren't static, they vary based on gear and can be hyper-specific. Changing a random piece can sometimes cause wild sways, which also depends on one of the default settings; how many iterations. The point at which gemming haste rather strength is not a specific item level.
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100 Tauren Paladin
6895
Well, I know I won't get anywhere near the 92k as that is in perfect conditions and no latency, but still.

Yes, but should I take the simmed stat weights as moderately accurate (for my current gear)? I've heard some people say that I should not listen to simcraft or any other tools like that, and other people say that it is reliable.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Simcraft is reasonably reliable for stat weights; don't read too far into the actual amount of DPS it predicts you'll do though. Real situations generally have complexities that a sim can't model well.

Delaying cooldowns by more than a couple seconds to line them up is, in most cases, a DPS loss. The only notable exception to this is GoAK, where it's usually worth delaying your second one until the 6-minute mark to line up with your fourth set of wings, unless that would prevent you from using it a third time (eg, a fight with a 12-minute enrage).

If you're confident that you are doing the rotation correctly, and you're making proper use of your cooldowns, and you're gearing appropriately, but you're still not performing up to par (if possible, compare yourself against some similarly-geared Rets that you know are doinitrite), the only meaningful variable left is practice. You don't just need to know the rotation, you want it to be mostly muscle memory: if you have to constantly think "ok, now I should use X ability", your DPS will suffer from the "mental latency". This may not be the culprit, but it's worth mentioning just because it's rarely discussed yet can make a big difference.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
I've heard some people say that I should not listen to simcraft or any other tools like that, and other people say that it is reliable.


I think the people saying ignore it are probably speaking to the projected DPS, and those saying that it is reliable are referring to the stat weights. 'Cause that's how I use it.

I get my weights and ignore the projected DPS numbers since, unless you futz with the settings, the DPS it spits out is for a Patchwerk-style encounter where you stand there and blow up the boss for about seven minutes with full raid buffs and a pre-pot. Considering that Feng is probably the closest to thing to a Patchwerk-style fight last tier, the basic settings are in no way reliable to actual encounters - especially given that all encounters now have some fancy mechanic or two to prevent them from being entirely Patchwerk.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Also note that Darkmist Vortex is actually inferior to Final Orders of Lei Shen, despite its higher ilvl. I don't know if you have a Final Orders lying around, and it's becoming a moot point as we move into t15, but might be worth mentioning.
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90 Human Paladin
10480
One thing that might improve your DPS is this: Ret Palas are very CD reliant. That means that you do most of your damage with CDs active. All those trinket procs/ on use procs/ and weapon enchant procs also matter. Your Guardian of Ancient Kings does a TON of damage if used at the right moment. Lets say you have a haste trinket or strength trinket. If you use those right before you pop him he will benefit from those gains. He scales directly from the stats you had before you popped him. Same for your weapon enchants and things like that. The same is true for Execution Sentence. If you have a bunch of procs rolling your Execution hits for that much more, theres a point where you can have enough haste to give it an extra tick but im not sure what that is. Just pay attention to your CDs and you will do more DPS. ALSO some fights benefit from you using them at the right moment. You need to use your CDs for moments when you have the most uptime on a boss. Like the second boss of ToT for instance. Don't pop everything right off the bat because as the fight progresses the boss gets a damage increasing debuff. Just use your nut a little bit and you will definitely shine.
Edited by Elurd on 3/19/2013 10:41 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10410
Are you taking into account what your DPS would be were you fully raid buffed? (I.E. 1K strength flask, blessing of kings, and all the buffs from other players?) You won't have that on a dummy, so I would say 62K on a dummy is pretty darn good. With all your raid buffs I would imagine you would be hitting somewhere around 80-85K on a real boss fight. Which is not bad for a ret pally in mostly LFR and rep gear.

You seem to be gemmed, enchanted, and reforged properly. You are missing out by not having a profession buff. Believe it or not that extra gem socket on gloves and bracers from blacksmithing comes in real handy. Also, how close to getting the extra socket on your sha touched weapon are you? That will make a difference as well from what I hear. I still cant find a group willing to kill the dwarf so I can get mine. ugh.

Also, make sure you are changing out your 2nd glyph on different boss fights. Double Jeopardy is great for fights like Horridon where there's mass mobs, but for fights like the first boss in ToT where it's single target, Divine Purpose might be a better fit for you, or even Harsh Words due to the random times you'll be out of melee range.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18460
03/20/2013 06:35 AMPosted by Nimaj
I still cant find a group willing to kill the dwarf so I can get mine. ugh.


Find out when the average raiding hours of the guilds on your realm. Hang out there for a bit around the time raids end.
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100 Tauren Paladin
6895
Thanks for all the replies. I've read everything and taken what you guys have said into account!

Also note that Darkmist Vortex is actually inferior to Final Orders of Lei Shen, despite its higher ilvl. I don't know if you have a Final Orders lying around, and it's becoming a moot point as we move into t15, but might be worth mentioning.


I haven't been able to pick one up yet, if I happen to get it this week though I'll switch it out for the Darkmist Vortex. I was actually using Lessons of the Darkmaster until yesterday, when I got Spark of the Zandalar.

03/19/2013 09:39 PMPosted by Ravicana
Delaying cooldowns by more than a couple seconds to line them up is, in most cases, a DPS loss. The only notable exception to this is GoAK, where it's usually worth delaying your second one until the 6-minute mark to line up with your fourth set of wings, unless that would prevent you from using it a third time (eg, a fight with a 12-minute enrage).


Alright, thanks. I think at most I was waiting about 5-10 seconds, so I'll be sure to work on that more.

Also, make sure you are changing out your 2nd glyph on different boss fights. Double Jeopardy is great for fights like Horridon where there's mass mobs, but for fights like the first boss in ToT where it's single target, Divine Purpose might be a better fit for you, or even Harsh Words due to the random times you'll be out of melee range.


I've been meaning to get some of the other viable glyphs that vary for the encounter, I don't think they're too expensive so I'll get those soon.

Guess I left this part out, but on Monday my guild was at Horridon, and we had almost beaten him last week a few times. This week some of the roster had changed up a bit as to who was available, and so we weren't doing as much dps as a group. On one particular attempt in which we thought would be our last attempt until we tried getting other people, I was charged at by Horridon almost every single time until we wiped at the 3rd door (that's our main problem spot, the rest is easy until Jerak is killed) and so my resulting dps and damage done wasn't very good as I had to keep moving out of the way, me being out damaged by a 483 DK. Horridon is also a bit hectic for me and maybe my problem was lack of focus (ignoring the charges on me) but eh. I'll work on it.

We're doing ToT tonight again, so I'll see how it goes.
Edited by Moocowalex on 3/20/2013 11:42 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
6895
Just got Lei Shen's Final Orders without using a coin :P
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