Sandstorm next for the nerfbat?

90 Goblin Shaman
15185
It should be.

Right now, it only has 2 good users: Anubisath Idol and Enchanted Broom, and a lot of people don't have/use a flawless stone on Enchanted Broom. Silithid Hatchling is around too but lacks a good move in the 2nd slot, substantially reducing its value on a team.

All other current users of Sandstorm are either Elementals who don't benefit from it and/or have a movepool reliant on multi-hit or AOE attacks which Sandstorm would itself nerf, or both (Tiny Twister).

In a little over a week, Qiraji Guardling will become available, adding another viable user, one which can have up to 325 Speed to launch a 2-turn stun against most pets, effectively giving it a free setup turn as well.

Fluxfire was annoying, you had to play around it, but that was as simple as using a strong elemental or useful magic type. Reflection was overpowered but had a long cooldown. Both could be played around without much effort...

...Sandstorm wrecks entire segments of the pet battle population single-handedly, and cannot be played around easily. If a team has 2 Sandstorm users, with its short 3-turn cooldown, you're not winning most weather wars. Pets that rely on multi-hit attacks all become useless, as well as all DOT-based pets.

It's not unbeatable (then again Fluxfire and Reflection weren't either, not even close, 1 Oily Slimeling was enough for me to win over 90% of matches against Fluxfires, and Reflection can be predicted), but it is extremely disruptive to the metagame. I've played against it off teams with JUST the 1 Anubisath, I've also taken to testing it myself with Anubisath + Broom. It IS overpowered and it WILL disrupt the metagame heavily. I'm winning matches against all kinds of things without even losing a pet to a KO now.

I would strongly advise one of Blizzard's next hotfixes to address this issue, rather than waiting until 5.3.
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90 Pandaren Rogue
13645
Sandstorm is in no way overpowered.

If Sandstorm is nerfed, they would have to nerf Call Darkness, etc. Which are the exact same skill with a different type.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
BnB
14295
I hear you can change weather during pet battles.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11910
I think you missed some of his/her points. I'm not saying I agree entirely, but his points are valid. 2-3 sandstorm pets, each with a 3 turn CD would be problematic.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
BnB
14295
I think you missed some of his/her points. I'm not saying I agree entirely, but his points are valid. 2-3 sandstorm pets, each with a 3 turn CD would be problematic.


It is just as harmful to both teams debuff wise. There is no opness to this power. The worst thing you can say it about it is it slows down battles due to more misses. There is no need for a change to this other than personal taste.
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90 Pandaren Rogue
13645
Except it's not.

You are more than welcome to change the weather on your own.

Again, things like Call Darkness are the same skill with a different type.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
BnB
14295
then again Fluxfire and Reflection weren't either, not even close


It also can't one shot pets nor is it buggy as hell. The reasons why that pet and that power were changed. You are comparing apples to hot dogs at this point.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12010
03/11/2013 05:23 AMPosted by Thundere
In a little over a week, Qiraji Guardling will become available, adding another viable user, one which can have up to 325 Speed to launch a 2-turn stun against most pets, effectively giving it a free setup turn as well.


Are you sure it can have a speed that high? I haven't seen any information on Guardling breeds.

Even if it could, you've basically just got a variation on the Anubisath Idol. Instead of negating one action every 4 turns, you can potentially negate 2 actions every 6 turns - and that 'potentially' is dependent on your opponent not caring about speed at all (325 is less speed than basically any speed-dependent enemy is likely to have).

Personally, I think it's more likely you'll see P/P Guardlings that Sandstorm + Reckless Strike.
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96 Night Elf Druid
13900
Sandstorm buffs/debuffs both teams. It is also very easy to change the weather. Sandstorm is not OP.
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95 Night Elf Druid
5680
Personally, I think it's more likely you'll see P/P Guardlings that Sandstorm + Reckless Strike.


The amount of QQ that will result if they hit, and then their opponent misses them on the vulnerability turn, is going to be epic.

I think if anything clearly needs a nerf, it's the DoT moves with high initial damage, so the initial damage + first tick adds up to the same damage as a normal attack, and then the DoT also continues ticking for several more turns. (Poison Fang and Flame Breath, for example.) Unless one of their counters (which is basically just shell shield and sandstorm) is not just available but *already in effect*, it's just plain better than a regular attack, and even spamming it to overwrite itself only brings it down to the level of a regular attack.

Most DoTs trade off less damage in the round they're used for more damage total if they run their full duration, which is fine, but when you *don't* deal less damage in the round you use it, the only disadvantages are the few counter moves and the rare case where you're faster than an opponent that has *just* enough HP to need the tick to finish them off (where a regular attack would just kill them before they could act).

That seems like too little disadvantage to counteract potentially dealing 200%+ damage (with full duration), especially when compared to other DoT moves with much less initial damage. E.g. Woodchipper, which does less initial damage than Poison Fang, the same damage per tick, and has 1 turn SHORTER duration. That's just not right.
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100 Tauren Druid
16350
Not fully relevant to the topic but...

In a little over a week, Qiraji Guardling will become available


Does no one else remember that the Snowy Owl wasn't up till November 1? Qiraji guardling isn't going to be up next week.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
13400
It is just as harmful to both teams debuff wise. There is no opness to this power. The worst thing you can say it about it is it slows down battles due to more misses. There is no need for a change to this other than personal taste.


Yeah, but sand team are explicitly built around the knowledge that you're using a sand team, and to avoid falling into your own pit, you dump multi-strike attacks and dots.

I don't see what the problem is with sand, personally. It's as bad as any other weather.
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90 Draenei Priest
10120
Not fully relevant to the topic but...

In a little over a week, Qiraji Guardling will become available


Does no one else remember that the Snowy Owl wasn't up till November 1? Qiraji guardling isn't going to be up next week.


I thought I read somewhere that the reason it came out on November 1st was that it was hotfixed and supposed to come out earlier.
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90 Tauren Hunter
10870
If it is OP -- which is arguable -- it doesn't mean that it is a broken ability. I think increasing the cooldown to 4 or 5 turns would go a long way to balancing things out.

It is certainly one of the most powerful moves in the game. It makes dot teams VERY risky to run.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12010
03/11/2013 10:52 AMPosted by Calonderiel
The amount of QQ that will result if they hit, and then their opponent misses them on the vulnerability turn, is going to be epic.


Even if both hit, you're still garnering a statistical advantage. Your Reckless Strike hits for its damage, minus the Sandstorm shielding. Your opponent's reprisal attack hits for (damage - Sandstorm) * 1.25.

You'll notice that while they're getting a 25% larger attack, that attack is effectively reduced by a 25% larger Sandstorm due to the order of the calculations.

So let's say your Reckless Strike hits for 450 and your Sandstorm shields for 100 (I know it doesn't, but makes the math easier). Without the Sandstorm, your opponent is hitting you for 360/round. Once you Reckless Strike, that goes up to 450/round - you'll kill each other at the same time (presuming all sorts of other things are also equal).

Now you drop the Sandstorm. Your damage/round drops to 350. His damage/round drops to 325. Despite being affected 'equally' by the Sandstorm, you're actually losing less than he is.
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100 Tauren Druid
16350

I thought I read somewhere that the reason it came out on November 1st was that it was hotfixed and supposed to come out earlier.


If you read that, it was an unsubstantiated rumor. You are welcome to go check the hotfix list for 5.0 back in November. Notice that the owl is all ready gone.
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95 Human Paladin
16080
But, then I'd have to rename my Anubisath from Darude :(
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90 Tauren Warrior
11925
Are you sure it can have a speed that high? I haven't seen any information on Guardling breeds.


I believe that was what they were seeing on the PTR.
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100 Troll Druid
14990
sandstorm itself is somewhat acceptable. (except for its 3 turn cd like OP mentioned)

it becomes problematic when they stack it with shell shield(and any other shield block ability) + heling ability.
Edited by Tangla on 3/11/2013 4:26 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Shaman
15185
Sandstorm is in no way overpowered.If Sandstorm is nerfed, they would have to nerf Call Darkness, etc. Which are the exact same skill with a different type.

They DID nerf Darkness to last 5 rounds instead of 9 (with its 5 round cooldown which is already much longer than the 3 rounds for most weather). Some comps and pet abilities were just too stupidly good with a long-lasting Darkness, forcing people to either play at a severe disadvantage in the face of several high-damage or 100%-proc-stun abilities, or bring their own weather.

Darkness doesn't kill entire swaths of the pet pool and movepools.

I hear you can change weather during pet battles.

I hear bad trolls often miss the point. Furthermore, almost everything that relies heavily on DOTs or multi-hit attacks ALSO happens to lack weather moves. But I don't expect a poster with your track record for trolling to understand this.

03/11/2013 07:13 AMPosted by Hearus
It is just as harmful to both teams debuff wise.

Not really, no. A good 1/3 or more pets in the game are hindered considerably by, or don't benefit from, Sandstorm. Ironically, every Elemental is worse off for it, which is why it isn't AS present of an issue, as the majority of Sandstorm users are Elementals who have no synergy with it or other wind-based pets who rely on moves like Slicing Wind, Wild Winds, Cyclone, etc which are all disable by it.

sandstorm itself is somewhat acceptable. (except for its 3 turn cd like OP mentioned)it becomes problematic when they stack it with shell shield(and any other shield block ability) + heling ability.

Indeed, I never specified what kind of incoming nerf will be ideal. 5-turn cooldown + 5-turn duration might be appropriate. /shrug Likewise for Scorched Earth and Call Lightning, and maaaybe Blizzard. The weak weathers without a lot of ability interactions or game-dominating effects should be fine at the standard cooldown and duration, like Moonlight and Arcane Winds.
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