Sandstorm next for the nerfbat?

90 Tauren Hunter
10455
I wonder if maybe the problem with sandstorm is that it is too comprehensive. It limits attacks and dots at the same time. Maybe they could split it into two spells, one that limits damage from attacks, one that limits dots.

Or maybe they should remove or nerf the damage portion of the spell. This would make it a more severe trade off to use.

Ugh, I hate the thought of adding MORE turns to my tamer dailies. They take forever as it is.
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90 Undead Rogue
4535
It's fine, leave it alone.
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90 Pandaren Priest
18360
It's fine, leave it alone.


No if we cry about pet skills long enough they will be destroyed/removed thus limiting the meta greatly so i don't have to put as much effort into building teams
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90 Goblin Shaman
15185
No if we cry about pet skills long enough they will be destroyed/removed thus limiting the meta greatly so i don't have to put as much effort into building teams

lol effort.

Anubisath, Broom, Crawdad/Emerald Proto or Whelp, etc = Auto-win against most possible combinations, except ones specifically tailored to counter them.

It's hardly about crying, I test how overpowered things are. From experience on both ends, Sandstorm is ridiculous. Anubisath is currently the most overpowered and disruptive pet in the game, it was before the Reflection change, and remains so now, because of Sandstorm.

Matters are further complicated by the fact that most weather changes are Dragonkin, who just don't beat Anubisath 1-on-1. So "bring your own weather" doesn't work out well. Elementals also fight a losing battle as their damage output is reduced by Sandstorm while Anubisath periodically heals itself.

It is telling how most responses disagreeing aren't anything analytical.
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90 Troll Druid
14800
problem with sandstorm or any other 'shield' abilities is quite simple.

most people who builds their team based on the sandstorm uses pets that has self-sustaining abilities.

like humaniod passive on anub, wish on lobster, emerald dream on protodrake etc etc.

They weren't foreseen as problem for many people in 5.1 build due to 'single attack' bursts that yields 4 digit number in one attack was VERY popular and common.

but, with deals 4 digit number(or anything 600+ in one instance) burst gone from the meta, general damage of pets have decreased down to small number + more # of hits, making shell shield/sandstorm alike very strong. (becomes practically impenetrable with both up + self sustain)

When I saw the 5.2 build on PTR where every single one of big bursts were nerfed, I expected shieldblock / ooze to be the most prominent threat in meta. Ooze being the best dps pet in game and shield block stacking coutnering both ooze and other non-bursters. I was hoping that they would change those 2 before releasing 5.2, but I guess not =s
Edited by Tangla on 3/14/2013 10:59 AM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
4535
Your assessment of sandstorm is bad too. Just FYI - If you use a Broom you are very unlikely to use Sandstorm. It's a waste of a good broom.

I've used sandstorm in combination with all sorts of things. If you have a stall team with healing and sandstorm you will do well vs teams that can't put out a lot of fast damage who use mostly weak multi attacks and can't change weather on you, but you'll get clobbered by hard hitting teams or teams that can change your weather on you.

You are not making good comparisons either. Put up your sandstorm team vs an elemental team... you got nothing. Put it up vs other weather based combinations and struggle to win. Your setup is that it relies on a very specific weather, without it you are muted.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
BnB
14295
Matters are further complicated by the fact that most weather changes are Dragonkin


This is not even close to true.
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90 Worgen Hunter
8925
03/13/2013 09:30 AMPosted by Zunde
It's fine, leave it alone.


No if we cry about pet skills long enough they will be destroyed/removed thus limiting the meta greatly so i don't have to put as much effort into building teams


So the 5.1 meta was so much better with around 10 top tier teams in PvP? It was horrible before the necessary nerfs. Imo that was a limited meta. The meta now is doing quite well, I'm seeing so many new pets and comps in PvP, and most fights are competitive.

As far as Sandstorm goes, I just haven't seen enough of it in 5.2 to have a valid opinion about. I do hate stallers in general, just not my thing.
Edited by Discodoggy on 3/14/2013 12:23 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Warrior
12105
Matters are further complicated by the fact that most weather changes are Dragonkin, who just don't beat Anubisath 1-on-1. So "bring your own weather" doesn't work out well


It is telling how most responses disagreeing aren't anything analytical.


Um.... did you really analyze weather teams?

The most common one *BY FAR* is Darkness and their normal users are Crow/Raven/Feline Familiar/Scourged Whelpling. Not a dragonkin in the lot of them...

The second most common is probably Sandstorm (which is called by mostly elementals funny enough).

After that is probably Lightning (which gets hosed by Sandstorm sure), which fits your 'mostly dragonkin' description. But that's pretty far down the list of weather teams already.

The other weather teams aren't particularly worth mentioning; but Blizzard and Rain can't called by dragons *at* all and Sunlight may as well be non-dragonkins too since Soul of the Aspects really shines in a Darkness comp.

Edit: I don't really have an opinion on Sandstorm, I've just been following this thread to see what other people think.
Edited by Roanranger on 3/14/2013 12:50 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Shaman
15185
Your assessment of sandstorm is bad too. Just FYI - If you use a Broom you are very unlikely to use Sandstorm. It's a waste of a good broom.

Broom is just a viable user of it, since only 1 of its other 4 moves is impeded by Sandstorm.

This is not even close to true.

Arcane Storm = 4/6 Dragonkin
Call Blizzard = 0/8 Dragonkin
Call Darkness = 2/8 Dragonkin
Call Lightning = 5/8 Dragonkin
Illuminate = 0/3
Moonfire = 4/6
Sandstorm = 0/9
Scorched Earth = 4/12
Starfall = 1/1
Sunlight = 1/5

*Cleansing Rain = 0/28 Dragonkin, but like 15 of those are Frogs/Toads with the same exact moves and stats, whereas most other weather effects are unique movesets or ones on only a few species options

At the very least, among unique movepools, Dragonkin have the highest representation at causing weather effects. Several Elementals, and the aforementioned Frogs, duplicate movesets and stats with each other. Humanoids are decently diverse but not as often represented as Dragonkin or Elementals.

As noted previously, Elementals also don't benefit from Sandstorm so they are at a disadvantage against other pets in it during the turns swapping in to change the weather, especially against the passive healing of Humanoids like Anubisath and Qiraji.

Overall, the point stands as-is. If you want to win the weather battle, you're going to need Dragonkin or Elementals the vast majority of the time and have no chance of winning the 1-on-1. Once your weather changer is dead to Anubisath, Sandstorm wins out again.

So the 5.1 meta was so much better with around 10 top tier teams in PvP? It was horrible before the necessary nerfs. Imo that was a limited meta. The meta now is doing quite well, I'm seeing so many new pets and comps in PvP, and most fights are competitive. As far as Sandstorm goes, I just haven't seen enough of it in 5.2 to have a valid opinion about. I do hate stallers in general, just not my thing.

It takes people a while to catch on and suffers from being slow and defensive. Even if it's disruptive and clearly overpowered, it's just slow and boring to play it out. It doesn't change the reality though.

The most common one *BY FAR* is Darkness and their normal users are Crow/Raven/Feline Familiar/Scourged Whelpling. Not a dragonkin in the lot of them...

Dark Whelpling is not that common and Darkness DID get nerfed. "Play Darkness or go home" shouldn't be the metagame though, not to mention you won't win a weather battle due to the cooldown. How common something is doesn't make something worth nerfing or not, it's how disruptive it is. Darkness does very little on its own and its main value is interactions with large hitting moves with cooldowns (the high damage on dragonkin doesn't hurt either)... and even Darkness DID get nerfed.

If you're wanting to win a weather war, you're going to want a 3-turn cooldown weather ability which will generally mean Moonfire, Call Lightning, Scorched Earth, etc whose main users are Dragonkin. Call Blizzard is its own set of pets, and a team theme I enjoy using because I love my Winter Helper. I was just saying that if you're intending to battle weather effects with 3-turn cooldowns, you're probably using a Dragonkin.
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90 Undead Rogue
4535
Broom is just a viable user of it, since only 1 of its other 4 moves is impeded by Sandstorm.


Unrelated to sandstorm, just a bit of advice:

If you are using broom and taking sandstorm and a weak human attack in Tier 1 you are wasting it's potential.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11405
03/14/2013 01:23 PMPosted by Thundere
Overall, the point stands as-is. If you want to win the weather battle, you're going to need Dragonkin or Elementals the vast majority of the time and have no chance of winning the 1-on-1. Once your weather changer is dead to Anubisath, Sandstorm wins out again.


You don't need to 'win the weather war'. Let's take a look at my 'toolkit' pets - the ones I use regularly for tamer battles:

Wins vs. Idol: Cogblade Raptor, Crow/Gilnean Raven, Darkmoon Hatchling, Emerald Shale Hatchling, Emperor Crab, Ghostly Skull, Jade Oozeling, Mr. Grubbs, Nether Faerie Dragon, Pandaren Earth Spirit, Red Cricket, Shimmershell Snail, Stinker

Coinflip: Rabbit, Emerald Proto-whelp, Enchanted Broom, Infinite Whelpling, Mechanical Pandaren Dragon, Nordrassil Wisp, Spawn of Onyxia

Loses vs. Idol: Phoenix Hatchling

In other words, if you just randomly challenged me to a pet battle while I was in the middle of 2v3 tamer battles, I'd almost certainly have an 'answer' for the Idol. And since the Idol does so little damage, there's nothing stopping me from giving you a free turn while I swap in that answer to trash the Idol.
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90 Goblin Shaman
15185
Wins vs. Idol: Cogblade Raptor, Crow/Gilnean Raven, Darkmoon Hatchling, Emerald Shale Hatchling, Emperor Crab, Ghostly Skull, Jade Oozeling, Mr. Grubbs, Nether Faerie Dragon, Pandaren Earth Spirit, Red Cricket, Shimmershell Snail, Stinker

Several of those are based on the assumption that Sandstorm isn't up. The Oozeling, for example, will do very poorly with the Sandstorm severely hindering Corrosion and Acidic Goo. You will, at best, Corrison => 2x Absorb, for a very slow possible win (assuming RNG from the natural 10% miss rate AND Sandstorm's extra RNG doesn't act up). You have to allow for switches on both sides and, while Sandstorm is up, your Oozeling is basically dead. 1 move has effectively removed your Oozeling from the battle for 9 rounds. Pretty much anything with Absorb stands a fair chance at a slow win.

I'm not even sure how Emerald Shale Hatcling is supposed to win except that I guess both sides mutually stall? It does almost no damage to the Idol which does very little damage in turn (I'm guessing Stoneskin because the shale spider gets no benefit from Sandstorm as an Elemental), while both sides continuously heal. Much like the Oozeling in that even if it can eventually win, it was already disabled so the Idol can easily switch out knowing it wrecked your pet for the next 9 rounds.

And this is the point you're missing. 1 move completely warps the metagame while you feel you're so talented for listing "counters" in the arbitrary context of a 1-on-1. There are several potential teammates that will themselves counter your "counters", which you can respond to by eventually listing a team of 3 pets handpicked to counter 1 specific other set of 3 pets... except that it wouldn't be a team you would reasonably use under normal circumstances and would probably lose to all kinds of other teams. Sandstorm goes up, Anubisath swaps out for something that isn't Absorb bait, your Absorb user remains near-useless for 9 rounds, while Anubisath is free to swap back in later on 1 of your other 2 pets, since I really doubt you made a team of 3 pets all to specifically counter Anubisath... -_-

You assume much for what does or might win, the Idol's offense is still respectable thanks to Sandstorm's own above-average damage and Rupture's solid damage (especially against something like the Cogblade Raptor or Nether Faerie Dragon). The 2 moves used to be exclusive but now Idol can still set up Imbastorm and maintain a respectable offensive presence. It could trade Rupture for Deflection, who knows if it will. The longer stall-ish ones listed above give more chances for Rupture to RNG into stuns as well (Mr Grubbs is slow enough to even suffer a 2-turn stun and, if you're using Burrow, Sandstorm makes its shaky accuracy even worse).

To further call out some specific pets...

I'm not even sure which Rabbit you refer to in the Coinflip scenario. Everything Rabbits hit with, except Burrow, is going to do reduced damage to the Idol (or have the bleed blocked by Sandstorm if it's Darkmoon Rabbit). The Rabbit can do a 2-turn Dodge and mount literally no offense against the Idol. Burrow's already-unreliable accuracy is made even worse by the Sandstorm itself, not to mention the long cooldown.

Enchanted Broom can force it to switch, which doesn't necessarily help anything. Batter will be useless. Wind-Up will do alright if you use it over Clean Sweep. The Idol's offense is comparable but with ~300 more health AND self-heals, I see no situation where the Broom should win.

Your Dragonkin options are odd choices considering Tail Sweep is doubly reduced by Sandstorm (Early Advantage also double dips on the reduction), not to mention the fact that the Idol's 244 speed is equal to the 244 of the 341 power dragonkin, while the Idol's basic smash is free to do Rupture-level damage every single turn. At best, you're looking at a near-mutual KO.

I'm not even sure how Cogblade Raptor is supposed to Batter down in the face of Sandstorm reducing the damage a ton. Exposed Wounds would eat a turn just to leave it doing normal damage, while it gets to eat a strong Rupture to the face every 3 turns.

We can theorycraft 1-on-1s with the Idol all day long but it does no good. Sandstorm still disables a ton of pets, including several of your proposed "counters", and theorizing 1-on-1s is not terribly productive since the Idol user would likely switch out against the very small number of bad matchups for it. You need to win the weather war in order to have a chance to use that Oozeling or Rabbit or Cogblade effectively anytime in the next 9 turns. Otherwise, you find yourself basically down 2v3 (or worse depending on your team) just because 1 overpowered weather effect is present.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11405
03/15/2013 12:13 PMPosted by Thundere
The Oozeling, for example, will do very poorly with the Sandstorm severely hindering Corrosion and Acidic Goo.


Turn 1: Sandstorm, Acidic Goo. 370 damage to Oozeling, -49 damage to Idol (with healing)
Turn 2: Rupture, Corrosion. 370 damage to Oozeling, 125 + 62 + 125 - 69 = 243 damage to Idol.
Turn 3: Crush, Absorb. 226 - 329 = 103 healing for Oozeling, 329 + 62 + 125 - 69 = 447 damage to Idol.
Turn 4: Sandstorm, Absorb. 300 - 329 = 29 healing for Oozeling, 329 + 62 + 125 - 69 = 447 damage to Idol.

Rinse, repeat. Note that the miss chance hurts the Idol a lot more than the Oozeling, since the Oozeling has no high damage cooldowns. If it misses, it just re-uses the ability next turn.

Yes, the Idol springs out to an early lead. But it very quickly settles into a pattern where the Idol simply can't do damage fast enough and is getting hammered for massive damage.

I'm not going to go into detail for every pet on that list, but they're all pretty similar - you're assuming Sandstorm is some sort of trump card when it's not.

Nor are these cherry-picked 'counter' pets. As I stated, they're simply my 'toolkit' pets - the pets I use on a regular basis for tamer battles. None of them were chosen for their role because of how they fight Sandstorm-wielding Humanoids (since there aren't any in tamer battles). In other words, the Idol does that badly against a list of pets that specifically don't counter it.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11405
03/15/2013 12:13 PMPosted by Thundere
We can theorycraft 1-on-1s with the Idol all day long but it does no good. Sandstorm still disables a ton of pets, including several of your proposed "counters", and theorizing 1-on-1s is not terribly productive since the Idol user would likely switch out against the very small number of bad matchups for it.


And swaps in... what? Bear in mind that you're giving a free turn to something that can kill an Idol through a Sandstorm.

In contrast, the Idol's opponent really is free to swap. The worst the Idol can do with 1 turn is 300-ish damage - a trivial amount when you consider how easy it is for an actual 'counter-pet' to kill it.

You're falling into the trap of imagining a perfect scenario for yourself while the worst scenario for your opponent - and not recognizing that for a slow, low damage pet like the Idol, the opposite is far more likely to be the case.

Note: The reason the Rabbit is a 'coinflip' (and you misjudged many other match ups) is that the Idol's healing is dependent on hitting the opponent. The Rabbit shuts down 60% of the Idol's offense/healing. So even though it's own offense is nothing to write home about through a Sandstorm, it's still a coinflip of a battle.
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90 Goblin Shaman
15185
300 - 329 = 29 healing for Oozeling

--I'm curious how the Oozeling is still doing over 300 with Absorb given the modifiers in play. Even if you're using the 325 power Jade Oozeling (which is debatable in value vs the 260 Oily with 289 Speed).

I would point out how you conveniently cut the scenario short at the best point for the Oozeling (right at the end of the peak of its offense and healing). And, like I said, anything with Absorb should be able to stall out well enough to make it a close match. In your scenario both pets are about half-dead, Idol's got Rupture next turn to drag the Ooze down to ~25% while it has to decide between setting up a bigger Absorb or sacrificing Corrosion and/or Acidic Good to get in more turns of weaker Absorbs.

At this point, you've also had to eat 2 Ruptures, which means you're up to ~50/50 on being stunned for a turn as well... had this stun occured on turn 2 with a slower Idol, you're losing 1 empowered absorb. If the Idol is faster than your ooze of choice, this would be a 2-turn slow delaying Corruption until Acidic Good was 1 turn away from wearing off.

You were also wrong on the miss chance being worse for the Idol. A miss on Corrosion is just as, if not more, penalizing to the Ooze than a miss on Rupture or Sandstorm. You're relying on Corrosion's short debuff, missing it means a much weaker Absorb and pushes everything back heavily. Missing an Absorb and having Corrosion fall off is also a severe drawback as it cuts heavily into the Ooze's survival. (I should know, Oily Slimeling was a staple on my team pre-5.2 because it basically gave me an auto-win against people banking on Fluxfire.)

The fact that you're also using Acidic Goo makes me question. There's literally 0 reason to use it. Rather than take 2 turns to set up and get 2 good Absorbs, doing a 4-turn cycle... just Corrosion then spam Absorb. Absorb is carrying, the 25% damage from the goo is minor. You should Corrosion, Absorb, Absorb for maximum efficiency against the Idol in a Sandstorm. I would expect someone who mathed out so much to recognize this fact. Under your posted setup, you're wasting turns 5 and 6 setting up the debuffs that fell off while your Oozeling drops down to ~200 health to be finished off on turn 7 if Idol goes first in your 244 vs 244 speed race. Like I said, you stopped the scenario where it looked most beneficial for the ooze... while using the wrong rotation and not realizing it also gives the Idol a chance to KO.

Again, this entire situation is moot, a super-effective move that also heals the user is literally the single worst possible scenario in the game for anything to go against. To make your hypotheticals look better, you also led with the only pet in the game that I'm aware of TO get something that basically counters Sandstorm (Corrision) AND Absorb... and it's STILL barely getting the job done providing it wins a coinflip in RNG on stuns.

And swaps in... what? Bear in mind that you're giving a free turn to something that can kill an Idol through a Sandstorm.

I could come up with any number of specific examples, but then you'd list something to counter that, resulting in the scenario I mentioned before where you say "Sandstorm isn't a problem because I can build an exact counter-team to what you chose that isn't necessarily a team I would take against a generic random opponent".

For example, I could say I'll swap in an Emerald Proto-Whelp because Emerald Presence synergizes very well with Sandstorm. You would say you'll swap in something good against the Whelp which doesn't necessarily synergize at all with your Oozeling, citing its one of your "toolkit" pets... which apparently involves you bringing about 20 pets to a 3 pet battle and then post-mortem picking the best 3 for a situation while your opponent doesn't get to anti-swap appropriately.

For example, I'm curious what you'd send against Proto-Whelp that would necessarily synergize with the Oozeling. You'd probably say Scourged Whelpling, because of Darkness... but therein lies your problem. You'd say Darkness when Darkness doesn't synergize with the ooze or Absorb... in fact, Death and Decay synergizes VERY well with the oozeling. If your Scourged Whelpling had Death and Decay to be a better teammate to the oozeling, it would just plain suck against the Proto-Whelp.

You're basically playing "Well any team you can list, I can list a team to counter it, therefore Sandstorm is fine" without acknowledging the core issue:
- A generic random average team comprised of any number of other things has no reasonable chance of winning because Sandstorm alone disables a huge ton of the game's pets.
Edited by Thundere on 3/16/2013 12:15 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Shaman
15185
Want to see if I can get some more replies and input that don't involve silly "Well X can beat Anubisath 1on1 thus Sandstorm is balanced" sidetracking. Because, really, that's like saying "I killed Hogger thus PVP is balanced".
Edited by Thundere on 3/19/2013 8:23 AM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
19775
Your points are valid, but they do not are enough to grant a nerf. Even if it cripples entire dot/multi-hit moves, it can be used against you and is easily counterable with another weather.
You said yourself, the only 3 good users of this move is anubisath, broom and qiraj.

Broom almost NEVER takes sandstorm, at least i never see anyone taking, with sweep destroying everything.

So, this leave us with anubisath and qiraj, two humanoids.. not good to have 2 of the same type in your team, but if you desire to do so, then you will have to deal with undead/weathers.
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90 Goblin Shaman
15185
Your points are valid, but they do not are enough to grant a nerf. Even if it cripples entire dot/multi-hit moves, it can be used against you and is easily counterable with another weather.

The problem is it isn't easily counterable. Mandating teams have ~2 weather-bringers or just auto-lose to Sandstorm is worse than bugged Fluxfire Feline. At least I could bring 1 solid Magic type and ruin Fluxfire's day. To counter Sandstorm you are entirely likely to require ~2 pets to do so (especially if they have 2 users themselves).

Undead are unreliable. DOT effects such as Syphon Life and Mushrooms and Death and Decay, for example, will do no good. And again, the ability to beat the user of Sandstorm does not make Sandstorm itself balanced.

You said yourself, the only 3 good users of this move is anubisath, broom and qiraj.

For now. Silithid Hatchling and some others can still use it, though not with great benefit. The threshhold shouldn't be waiting until there's enough users to be even more clearly overpowered.
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90 Tauren Druid
15965
Except its not overpowered.. I'm not even sure you know what overpowered means based on your statement that Sandstorm is worse than the FFF's original ability set. Sandstorm can be countered. The pets that bring it are fairly easy to deal with. There are better teams out there even. Its not all that fantastic. FFF was just absurd.

Actually reading some of your posts, I'm not entirely sure you understand how weather works.
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