The Restoration Shaman Weakness

90 Orc Shaman
HC
15680
Going into T15 and toying with fights on PTR I noticed something, I noticed the fights were heavy movement and had sporadic stacking times when Healing Rain would get optimal usage(Outside of say, Mageara). This presents a specific class with a problem that not many others have to deal with nor have felt for 2 tiers, and that is our weakness.

In MoP beta many Shaman posted, and overall we received phenomenal changes. The utility in terms of healing output we can bring are amazing(Albeit 2 are much weaker this tier than the last 2) when needed. 25m guilds can afford to bring a Restoration Shaman for MTT/AV as well as Shamans in 25m being able to utilize healing rain. This however changes in 10m, this presents us with a situation where a Restoration Shamans most powerful healing tool gets very minimal usage and resorts us back to using: Riptide->HS/HW/GHW->HS/HW/GHW- and dropping HST.

I don't mind a challenge in my playstyle, and Restoration Shaman will inevitably be fine but the problem needs to stop being ignored. It's understandable our niche is no movement/stacked healing, but when not in our niche we fall extremely short. A Restoration Shaman loses more overall than any other healer leaving their niche, and that's a problem. There doesn't have to be major homogenization, there are so many ways to simply aid the spec to deal with such damage without making them too strong in it.

Blizzard did try to address this with Glyph of Riptide and Glyph of Chaining. These glyphs fell short, it was said on Beta and I'll say it again, they are worthless. Glyph of riptide has simply too big of a downside to even be considered, the HoT is not strong enough to warrant forgetting the direct healing. Glyph of Chaining is horrendous for the mere fact it only increases the range but not all the other problems chain heal faces and adds a cooldown for a mere range increase. Like I said, there doesn't have to be much but there does have to be something.

In t14 the utility we brought in terms of healing burst output was unmatched, this tier it will change. With Ascendance having a 20 yard range and no healing rain on 6+ people to utilize it the cooldown won't even be half of what it was in T14 outside of a select few fights. That alone dampens our ability to top off a raid, rendering us back to a mere mastery single target support role with 1 good addition, HTT.

There are many small things that can be done to aid such, so dampen how weak we become in certain encounters. It's fine to be weak in different situations, I mean I even advocate it but there are times when being too weak can have harmful effects. Allow Chain Heal to back-bounce at least once, allow Chain Heal to bounce to a target with full health if no one with <100% is in range, the biggest one would be, don't have Glyph of Riptide reduce the effectiveness of the spell by such a huge portion.

I'm not going to throw numbers around, there isn't enough Data yet for me to present numbers. But I'm not an idiot and I know what is coming, I've experienced it one too many times and this is simply a repeat. I don't raid 25m and I have no intention to raid 25m, so this is all purely from a 10m perspective. This is also why I didn't post this in the other Shaman thread, it's not about numbers but effectiveness.

TL;DR We don't need to be like everyone else at mobile/spread healing and we're honestly not horrible, but we also shouldn't be as vulnerable to it as we are. Glyph of Riptide/Chaining was meant to solve/help it but failed, reiterating there would be a nice start.
Edited by Sensations on 3/11/2013 1:48 PM PDT
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
15680
If there's any justice left in the world this thread will be trolled unmercifully by Druids.


All is welcome, free bumps are worth fighting for :). As long as they come prepared with good arguments <3.
Edited by Sensations on 3/11/2013 1:26 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
HC
9450
As long as they come prepared with good arguments <3.


Unlikely.

The strong druids this tier are the good ones.

We won't see them here.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8960
I agree with a lot of this, even though I tend to raid in a 25m group. Even there the abilities we have just fall very short of providing us with an effective way to heal the encounters in 5.2 the way they are designed. The fights themselves are really fun, and are a relief from just having a static raid, but not having the ability to effectively heal a raid up is just frustrating whether you are in a 10m and 25m raid, although I do concede it is a far worse problem in 10 than in 25 atm, however that isn't saying much at all since even in 25 its not effective to use healing rain at all.
Everything that was designed for MOP that we do have works well, even with the spread out encounters, HST and HTT mainly are two pretty new or redesigned spells for MOP and they do work, inf act they are the only ones that really do work, so it is possible to make spells for mop for shamans that do work, or even to modify existing spells so that they do work. I just don't understand from a design perspective how this was such an oversight, clearly the fights are highly movement based, obviously a class that relies on a single spell to do a majority of its healing in a single spot with no alternative is going to fail. Keep in mind I don't mean in numbers although that is definetely something I would call a symptom of what is going on, but that the tools we have are just useless.

The easiest bandaid fix I can think of is to increase the jump distance of CH by 100% as a baseline, get rid of the clunky 4sec cd, get rid of the clunky interaction between CH and riptide, and allow it to just benefit from tidal waves, not sure if it needs an thoroughput increase but I would think it kind of does. We're just lacking a spammable smart heal that the other classes all have to some degree, (not sure about druids so don't quote me), but for example light of dawn is a smart heal, prayer of mending, circle of healing, arcing light, atonement, etc. Our only smart heal is CH, and even that isn't exactly smart to begin with, I'm going to guess that someone on the design team is going to cringe at the idea of bring CH back to somewhat of its former glory in ICC, but seriously there just isn't really another great answer that is readily available right now, its really really obvious there is something missing from shaman healing, again its not even about numbers, its a fundamental class mechanic that just isn't there.
Edited by Janthara on 3/11/2013 1:46 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
Resto shaman are a spec of a class, not a raid size. Both venues share issues. Focusing on one aspect will only hurt not help. Should change your title.

Though i do agree with your points.
Edited by Sadiemay on 3/11/2013 1:47 PM PDT
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
15680
Resto shaman are a spec of a class, not a raid size. Both venues share issues. Focusing on one aspect will only hurt not help. Should change your title.

Though i do agree with your points.


10m was emphasized because I have no experience to speak in any manner about 25m, but I did edit it out of the title since I did emphasize 10m at the bottom of my post based off my experience and so it doesn't make it sound like only 10m have the problem :p.
Edited by Sensations on 3/11/2013 1:52 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
Thing i threw out in the other thread is why do the jumps decrease as they chain? So your reward for using the heal successfully is being penalized on the last jump? WG/PoH/CoH which are all similar spells have no such limitations. Wouldn't mind seeing them treat it like the change that just happened to CL. No more penalty for mulitple hits and proper use. And the coding has to already be there as they just did this in this patch.

edit: this is a very FL esque tier where you are spread on every fight at least 8 yards for a good portion of the fight. With Heroics this week it will only get worse.
Edited by Sadiemay on 3/11/2013 1:59 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Even if Chain Heal was increased to a ridiculous 50 yard jump range, I still don't think it would fix much. The undeniable fact is that the spell is terrible. It is just too slow, and doesn't heal for enough to be worth the mana expenditure. I don't use it now even when it can be effective healing on 4 targets, unless the entire raid is at very low health or I have excess mana to burn off. It is the only AoE spell in the game that is less efficient than single target heals. Even under ideal situations (4 targets + Riptide), it is marginally more HPS and significantly less HPM than Healing Wave.

On top of that, it is way too slow to ramp up. You are looking at a 2.2 second cast, as well as a 1.4 second instant cast GCD to get Riptide on the target (if not already there), so realistically, a 3.6 second ramp time. By the time you get that off, the healing is often sniped, the chain is broken, etc.

The spell is just terrible in every way and every situation. It needs massive buffs in addition to a jump distance increase. I know that you can't compare spells across specs, but compare Prayer of Healing to Chain Heal for a second, because both spells have the same cast time and mana cost.

Prayer of Healing:
-Group specific limitation (easily manageable with intelligent raid group setup).
-40 yard range
-Hits all targets in the group within range (generally 5, but sometimes more if there are pet classes in the group)
-Hits all targets for 100% effectiveness
-Secondary bonuses from Divine Aegis and Holy Priest mastery

Chain Heal:
-4 targets maximum with 30% degradation on each additional target
-12.5 yard jump radius
-Chance to apply ELW

Here is the kicker - Chain Heal heals for about the same amount as PoH - on the first target with Riptide up. Yet, PoH hits more targets, doesn't have the range restrictions, hits all targets for 100% effectiveness without the 30% diminishing returns, and gives better secondary bonuses to both Priest specs than CH does.

How is that acceptable for a spell with the same cast time and mana cost?
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
While I agree that Chain Heal needs some changes (and some love in general), I really don't think you want it to be party-bound, Tiberria. You're comparing apples to oranges. Point out the flaws of the spell itself. Whining because you think another spell is better is quite silly.

Different classes are different. They are structured in different ways. You would do better to point out the range limitations and overall high cost vs. healing done than to say, "PoH is so much better than this spell." lol
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
40 yard range

And it also has a 40 yard ranged based on the target you cast it on, just like Wild Growth.... so if you cast it on someone 40 yards from you, the absorb and heal can effectively extend up to 80 yards
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Well, PoH is a good relative example... by that I mean it is has a similar role for a Holy Priest. It is a non-CD heal that simply costs mana to cast, that has CD spells as higher priority.

I think the only other similar example these days is monk's SCK. Of course the tooltip for SCK is all kinds of WTF. HPallies radiance has lots of extra's, Druids rejuv blanket as an AoE filler, Disc lacks higher priority AoE spells.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7985
minor correction: PoH and Chain Heal both have an initial 40 yard range on the initial target, but PoH will only heal in a 30yd range from the initial target. Dunno if that's what you meant Tiberria, but just wanted to clarify.

Chain heal also has advantages over PoH in that it is a smart heal, which can make it more effective in triage then PoH, and also lower overheal when damage is spotty. Just think that it's hard to directly compare chain heal and PoH, as they are quite different in function.
Edited by Mythrose on 3/11/2013 2:57 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Well, PoH is a good relative example... by that I mean it is has a similar role for a Holy Priest. It is a non-CD heal that simply costs mana to cast, that has CD spells as higher priority.

I think the only other similar example these days is monk's SCK. Of course the tooltip for SCK is all kinds of WTF. HPallies radiance has lots of extra's, Druids rejuv blanket as an AoE filler, Disc lacks higher priority AoE spells.


Atonement and our level 90 talents, actually, have higher priority.

Like I said, though, Chain Heal NEEDS to be looked at. It's asinine that the glyph to extend the range also adds a CD.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13265
Well, PoH is a good relative example... by that I mean it is has a similar role for a Holy Priest. It is a non-CD heal that simply costs mana to cast, that has CD spells as higher priority.

I think the only other similar example these days is monk's SCK. Of course the tooltip for SCK is all kinds of WTF. HPallies radiance has lots of extra's, Druids rejuv blanket as an AoE filler, Disc lacks higher priority AoE spells.


Atonement and our level 90 talents, actually, have higher priority.

Like I said, though, Chain Heal NEEDS to be looked at. It's asinine that the glyph to extend the range also adds a CD.


I'm just happy that more folks are talking about it now. I truly wish there had been this much focus on CH during the beta, but we'll see if anything happens to it on Live while MoP is still current.

Really, I think:

-baking the Riptide power bonus into the baseline spell
-increasing the jump distance
-removing the jump decay when cast on a Riptide target

would go a long way.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12925
The spell is just terrible in every way and every situation. It needs massive buffs in addition to a jump distance increase. I know that you can't compare spells across specs, but compare Prayer of Healing to Chain Heal for a second, because both spells have the same cast time and mana cost.

Prayer of Healing:
-Group specific limitation (easily manageable with intelligent raid group setup).
-40 yard range
-Hits all targets in the group within range (generally 5, but sometimes more if there are pet classes in the group)
-Hits all targets for 100% effectiveness
-Secondary bonuses from Divine Aegis and Holy Priest mastery

Chain Heal:
-4 targets maximum with 30% degradation on each additional target
-12.5 yard jump radius
-Chance to apply ELW

Here is the kicker - Chain Heal heals for about the same amount as PoH - on the first target with Riptide up. Yet, PoH hits more targets, doesn't have the range restrictions, hits all targets for 100% effectiveness without the 30% diminishing returns, and gives better secondary bonuses to both Priest specs than CH does.

How is that acceptable for a spell with the same cast time and mana cost?


You can't really compare the 2. You have to take each healer's entire toolbox into consideration when looking at individual spells. I'm not denying Chain Heal is in desperate need of attention (it is), but comparing it to Prayer of Healing is moot since it's just one spell in each healer's arsenal and neither make up exactly 100% of either's output. It would be similar to a Holy Priest complaining that Holy Word: Sanctuary doesn't heal for as much as Healing Rain.

Increasing the range and healing of Chain Heal would be a start, but to keep Shaman balanced they would have to reduce output elsewhere. I don't think many Shaman would complain if they saw a buff to Chain Heal (both in range and healing done) and a nerf to Healing Rain. Being tethered to Healing Rain's output is a large problem right now.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7845
My poh needs to do as much damage as spinning crane kick, spawn little dancing gnomes that each cast healing rain, and put a 400k shield on everyone in one cast. What? Other spells can do stuff.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12555
Sensations/Tiriel -

Since I don't have a 90 Shaman (yet), I'm wondering if you could do me a favor, and give me some information;

Mana costs at 90 of:

Chain Heal
GHW
HW
HS
Riptide
HR

I don't need to know how much any of them heal for, but any interactions/synergies would also be helpful. Also, the Riptide glyph leaves the HoT portion, but removes both the upfront heal, and the CD, yes? I'm asking that just for clarity, not really in preparation to advocate its use.

Thanks.

Riôt
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
CH - 13,500
GHW - 14,526 (with t14 2 pc) 16,140 without
HW - 5940
HS - 20,580
Riptide - 9600
HR - 21,981
HST - 14,100

The Riptide glyph removes 90% of the upfront heal. The 10% portion is left on so that it continues to interact with Resurgence. Aside from that, there really aren't any interactions. All 3 single target direct heals and the direct healing component of Riptide proc Ancestral Awakening, and all non-totem heals proc Earthliving Weapon. Obviously, Riptide and Chain Heal proc Tidal Waves.
Edited by Tiberria on 3/11/2013 5:19 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12555
CH - 13,500
GHW - 14,526 (with t14 2 pc) 16,140 without
HW - 5940
HS - 20,580
Riptide - 9600
HR - 21,981
HST - 14,100


Awesome, thanks.

Riôt
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