The Restoration Shaman Weakness

90 Draenei Shaman
17105


Increasing the range and healing of Chain Heal would be a start, but to keep Shaman balanced they would have to reduce output elsewhere.


No, they would not. Resto Shaman are significantly behind every other healer this tier (in most cases, there is a bigger gap from 5-6 than there is from 1 to 5 right now). There should be 0 balance issues with a straight up buff to Chain Heal; Resto output can come up 20-25% without being even close to OP.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930


Increasing the range and healing of Chain Heal would be a start, but to keep Shaman balanced they would have to reduce output elsewhere.


No, they would not. Resto Shaman are significantly behind every other healer this tier (in most cases, there is a bigger gap from 5-6 than there is from 1 to 5 right now). There should be 0 balance issues with a straight up buff to Chain Heal; Resto output can come up 20-25% without being even close to OP.


What if they just lowered the amount of healing Healing Rain does, and folded that into Chain Heal? Increase the range and healing, lessen or remove the drop off, and keep Healing Rain from being the ball every Shaman is shackled to.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105


No, they would not. Resto Shaman are significantly behind every other healer this tier (in most cases, there is a bigger gap from 5-6 than there is from 1 to 5 right now). There should be 0 balance issues with a straight up buff to Chain Heal; Resto output can come up 20-25% without being even close to OP.


What if they just lowered the amount of healing Healing Rain does, and folded that into Chain Heal? Increase the range and healing, lessen or remove the drop off, and keep Healing Rain from being the ball every Shaman is shackled to.


I think Healing Rain is fine in terms of how much it heals for; it's just that it's a disproportionate proportion of Shaman (esp 25 man) output because the rest of our toolkit is so limited/lacking. On top of that, Shaman output on a stacked raid is hardly OP (it's at best average the last 2 tiers), so I don't see any justification for it being nerfed. They should just straight up buff CH or something else (I wouldn't be opposed to just band-aid fixing the output problem with a buff to Purification that can then be reevaluated next tier) and worry about whether HR is or isn't OP later. It certainly is not and will not be OP this tier.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17975


No, they would not. Resto Shaman are significantly behind every other healer this tier (in most cases, there is a bigger gap from 5-6 than there is from 1 to 5 right now). There should be 0 balance issues with a straight up buff to Chain Heal; Resto output can come up 20-25% without being even close to OP.


What if they just lowered the amount of healing Healing Rain does, and folded that into Chain Heal? Increase the range and healing, lessen or remove the drop off, and keep Healing Rain from being the ball every Shaman is shackled to.


I mean, I'm a fan of HR being used less but CH would need to be increased by a huge % and HR nerfed by a small % for it to be worth the change. Honestly the best place they can start doing is making CH more responsive, by allowing a bounce-back and if required going to a full target to search for a new target.

The Resto Shaman toolkit is simply missing something minor, and it can be fixed with our current tools/spec specific passives. Honestly even starting with the glyphs that were supposed to help in these situations, being actually helpful. Then from there we can worry about the throughput of each spell, but as long as there is such a gap unless they lessen the mechanical burden we'll be yoyo's between tiers like t13/14 and tiers like t12/15.

Honestly a lot isn't needed and I don't think any shamans wants the capabilities of a Rdruid or even a priest, because I sure don't. But something is needed and we currently have the base work, Blizzard just wants that base work to be completely useless. As far as throughput is concerned, I'm not too worried about that as much as something minor being done to help us in these situations.
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93 Blood Elf Priest
7430
To say that Resto is 20-25% behind other healers, sure I can see that, if you dont factor in mastery. On this note you cant deny the strengths you bring to the raid. Your mastery, while making you under powered is what also makes you very useful. Your triage healing is fantastic. The ability to bomb out massive heals even while only casting HW is impressive. I mean our shammy frequently reported 400-500k ghw crits throughout t14 as well as occasionally getting 200k crits with HW.

In terms of CH there is something missing. The degradation is counter-intuitive. As other people have mentioned I feel like there should be a trade off. Maybe bake it into a talent, where one talent would boost CH, and another would boost HR or something to the point where you have to choose one or the other.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Prayer of Healing:
-Group specific limitation (easily manageable with intelligent raid group setup).
-40 yard range
-Hits all targets in the group within range (generally 5, but sometimes more if there are pet classes in the group)
-Hits all targets for 100% effectiveness
-Secondary bonuses from Divine Aegis and Holy Priest mastery


-30 yard radius means that its effectiveness is reduced if the raid is spread, and this cannot always be circumvented by proper group set-ups
-Not a smart, raid heal and thus prone to overhealing or sniped by other smart heals
-Effectiveness is diminished if someone in the group has died or is out of range of PoH's radius
-Pretty sure CH is affected by your Mastery too

Still, PoH is clearly better numbers-wise than CH, but I just thought I'd point out some of the flaws of PoH which you seemed to neglect.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Maybe bake it into a talent, where one talent would boost CH, and another would boost HR or something to the point where you have to choose one or the other.


That is about the worst idea I have ever heard. Why should we have to choose between HR being strong or CH being strong? What if you want HR strong for certain parts of the fight and CH strong for other portions? What other healers have that limitation? That idea would be essentially implementing a Chakra for Resto Shaman without the ability to switch in combat.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
03/11/2013 11:10 PMPosted by Tiberria
Maybe bake it into a talent, where one talent would boost CH, and another would boost HR or something to the point where you have to choose one or the other.


That is about the worst idea I have ever heard. Why should we have to choose between HR being strong or CH being strong? What if you want HR strong for certain parts of the fight and CH strong for other portions? What other healers have that limitation? That idea would be essentially implementing a Chakra for Resto Shaman without the ability to switch in combat.

Tiberria I think you're throwing the idea out the window too fast, this could be a good idea. You can't have your cake and eat it too, having a really good heal to cast for both stacked and spread situations. I think he's just saying you'll have to make the call on which you'd rather have more "powerful". Kind of like what Sensations is already recommending, buffing one and nerfing the other to appropriate levels. But you can switch it back to how it currently is now depending on the fight..
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
Tiberria I think you're throwing the idea out the window too fast, this could be a good idea. You can't have your cake and eat it too, having a really good heal to cast for both stacked and spread situations. I think he's just saying you'll have to make the call on which you'd rather have more "powerful". Kind of like what Sensations is already recommending, buffing one and nerfing the other to appropriate levels. But you can switch it back to how it currently is now depending on the fight..


I don't think anyone is asking for a "really good heal" for spread situations. We just want to have a heal for spread situations. Extending Chain Heal's range baseline and increasing its throughput to be somewhat decent isn't going to make it an amazing one hit wonder.
Edited by Pebble on 3/12/2013 12:41 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
All the guy said was "boost". Nothing about "increasing the range".
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
All the guy said was "boost". Nothing about "increasing the range".


A numbers boost to chain heal without a range increase isn't going to help much of anything, and most certainly won't fix the primary issue with our healing.

And regardless, I wasn't referring to his suggestion but rather to your comment:

You can't have your cake and eat it too, having a really good heal to cast for both stacked and spread situations.


Chain Heal doesn't need to be "really good," it just needs to not be awful (and, in spread situations, work).
Edited by Pebble on 3/12/2013 1:58 AM PDT
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90 Goblin Shaman
8370
I'd like to bring blizzard's attention to this too. This is simply too out of hand. They really need to do something before guilds start doing heroic progression and realized there are almost no reasons to bring us over other healers.

Saying "raidbots and world of logs don't mean everything" just makes blizzard looks stupid. The problem is very obvious and needs to be fixed now, not wait until patch 5.3 / 5.4.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
03/11/2013 11:03 PMPosted by Silencieux
Your triage healing is fantastic.


Shaman mastery was built for when blizzard had it's grand idea of triage healing. Shamans would have been the kings of healing due to mastery. Just turns out that blizzard forgot to introduce any encounters that required triage healing.

Healing has become keep everyone topped off for that massive hit that is coming so more times than not you are healing someone at 75-80% health which effectively removed mastery from the equation.

Is it clutch on a tank that didn't dodge/block, heck yeah. Is it doing anything 75% of the fight? Nah not really.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
03/12/2013 04:03 AMPosted by Sadiemay
Your triage healing is fantastic.


Shaman mastery was built for when blizzard had it's grand idea of triage healing. Shamans would have been the kings of healing due to mastery. Just turns out that blizzard forgot to introduce any encounters that required triage healing.

Healing has become keep everyone topped off for that massive hit that is coming so more times than not you are healing someone at 75-80% health which effectively removed mastery from the equation.

Is it clutch on a tank that didn't dodge/block, heck yeah. Is it doing anything 75% of the fight? Nah not really.


Deep Healing mastery also creates huge balance issues in both PvP and PvE. Because it is so strong in PvE, Shaman are frequently denied needed PvE buffs because they are too afraid of buffing PvP. From a PvE perspective, the design of the Mastery means that Shaman are pretty much balanced around getting effective use of their mastery and around targets being at reasonably low health levels. They can't balance Shaman throughput around the typical health levels in a raid environment, because it would make Shaman too strong on difficult progression content. As a result, our output is almost balanced around that difficult progression content, making it very weak outside of that, or in any situation where healing is suppressed by too many absorbs in the raid, etc.

Effectively, when you average out the gain that Shaman get from their Mastery over the course of raid encounters, it is probably the weakest healing mastery in the game, especially when there are specs that get 35%+ of their effective output from Mastery (cough Paladins cough). It's probably long past time that they put the Deep Healing mastery out to pasture and rework it; it is a class balance nightmare and prevents Shaman from getting buffs that they need.
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90 Tauren Shaman
15790
it is probably the weakest healing mastery in the game, especially when there are specs that get 35%+ of their effective output from Mastery (cough Paladins cough). It's probably long past time that they put the Deep Healing mastery out to pasture and rework it


Absolutely this.

it is probably the weakest healing mastery in the game


And yet it has the potential to be the strongest in the right circumstances, and therein lies the issue. Our mastery is encounter-specific, unlike any other mastery in the game, and the encounters aren't designed with this in mind anymore.

Kill Deep Healing, RShamans will be better off without it.
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86 Pandaren Shaman
1100
Couple of things

On the Glyph of Riptide, I think they were trying to add a little choice to how we heal (Essentially using Riptide to get the tidal wave buff, and then having a lower cast time on HW/GHW or more Crits on HS). I'm gonna probably end up using it..

But back to the main thing, Personally I like the idea of the whole Talent to chose between Healing Rain and Chain heal.

Just as a thought, (No idea how you'd buff chain heal with the talent) If they were to make it a talent choice, Why not just have a talent that allows you to move your Healing Rain, like you can do with totems, or hell why not just make it a Glyph that Buffs one but makes another worse.

Personally I would like a talent/glyph like that, or maybe more talents like that, I like the idea that blizzard had of making Talents a more Player based choice rather then cookie cutter stuff (although we still all follow the same build).
It'd be nice to be able to, say, make Riptide have no cooldown (without the drawbacks) at the cost of losing the burst that Healing Surge provides(removing the Tidal wave buff from it, or increasing cast time/mana cost/what have you), or making Healing Surge heal more damage while increasing Riptides CD along with removing it's Upfront heal (What ever I'm just giving ideas, not balanced ones)
Choices like that would be nice (all be it probably a nightmare to balance).

If you're looking for a buff to CH, Apart from removing the Reduced healing per jump, Why not make it a sort of AoE spidar web rather then a direct jump. (I.E I heal the Tank, and the heal comes out the top of him and Spiders off onto other players surrounding him, and making those heals have the ability to jump, but not to a target that's already been chain heal'd by it). It'd add an effective way of healing people in an area without needing them to stand around inside it, Although it'd take some balancing to decide the area it spiders off to (If you think about it you could effectivly build a Line between Tanks, DPS and Healers so that the heal would always hit everyone) or limiting the bounces.

Just a thought.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
03/12/2013 01:57 AMPosted by Pebble
All the guy said was "boost". Nothing about "increasing the range".


A numbers boost to chain heal without a range increase isn't going to help much of anything, and most certainly won't fix the primary issue with our healing.

And regardless, I wasn't referring to his suggestion but rather to your comment:

You can't have your cake and eat it too, having a really good heal to cast for both stacked and spread situations.


Chain Heal doesn't need to be "really good," it just needs to not be awful (and, in spread situations, work).

Uhhh.. I guess I didnt make any sense or something because im not sure how this relates.. soooo im just going to move along >.>
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100 Draenei Shaman
6150
As a result, our output is almost balanced around that difficult progression content, making it very weak outside of that, or in any situation where healing is suppressed by too many absorbs in the raid, etc.


So... shaman healing is weak in fights that you're going to trivially win anyway? How is this a problem for anyone other than meter watchers?

Of course you're going to be balanced around difficult progression content -- that's the only content where your relative strength is even relevant at all. Anyone can heal trivial content, that's what makes it trivial.

I'm not going to say "shaman are fine" because I'm not even 90 yet, but if they don't have a problem more serious than "they can only heal people who actually take damage", then I think it's a little early in the patch to call for buffs.

IMO, the most important thing to know to use meters intelligently is when to completely ignore them. Like when you didn't have a problem with not enough heals, it probably doesn't make much sense to look at the healing meters and judge the people who were lower. More DPS is always useful, to shorten the fight by 5 seconds if nothing else, but you can't heal more damage than your raid actually takes and meters get screwy when too many healers are competing to heal too little damage.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17975
03/11/2013 11:03 PMPosted by Silencieux
To say that Resto is 20-25% behind other healers, sure I can see that, if you dont factor in mastery. On this note you cant deny the strengths you bring to the raid. Your mastery, while making you under powered is what also makes you very useful. Your triage healing is fantastic. The ability to bomb out massive heals even while only casting HW is impressive. I mean our shammy frequently reported 400-500k ghw crits throughout t14 as well as occasionally getting 200k crits with HW.


Except those large heals are usually done with UF and not mastery, which is a common misconception. We're basically spending 2 globals for an 80% increased heal, instead of just using the heal twice. It saves mana over using the heal twice, but just because it's a high number doesn't mean other classes can't match it in terms of globals used. Now sure we can get the highest crits, but it's not as simple as "used 1 spell."

The strengths are there yes, but I fail to see how our mastery makes us underpowered. I don't top off tanks 1-100 with just mastery, if I get a lucky HS crit for 300k that's nice and all but a 180k-200k crit from someone else would've sufficed. As great as our mastery is, the flaws of it is very present: Demand and Damage pattern. So yes it's a great mastery, it's no reason for your claims to be true.


In terms of CH there is something missing. The degradation is counter-intuitive. As other people have mentioned I feel like there should be a trade off. Maybe bake it into a talent, where one talent would boost CH, and another would boost HR or something to the point where you have to choose one or the other.


I don't like the whole choose a talent idea, it creates too many problems for the class entirely and just isn't needed. What we have right now is sufficient, they can buff ch by 100% and increase range to 25 yards right now and Shamans won't be OP and they probably wouldn't be much higher than they are now. CH mechanically needs to be fixed first and foremost, in ways I stated in the OP would be a start. As for Numbers, Blizzard likes our spell selection, if they wish to buff our throughput the easiest way is buffing purification by a certain % or if they're worried about PvP go buff certain spells by a % but I won't comment too much on number changes because we're not there yet.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990


So... shaman healing is weak in fights that you're going to trivially win anyway? How is this a problem for anyone other than meter watchers?

Of course you're going to be balanced around difficult progression content -- that's the only content where your relative strength is even relevant at all. Anyone can heal trivial content, that's what makes it trivial.


It seems to be weak in progression fights too, and even in fights that "favor" Shaman mechanics this tier. In the other thread, Shaman ranks #5 of 6 on two fights, and last on the rest. That doesn't seem right to me.

You have to ask the question of why things are like this, and why it's ok, especially when every other healer spec (except Druid I think) is top healer on at least one encounter. When Shaman can't do that even at their very best, I say that's a problem, and to make matters worse, this exact same problem has happened before.


IMO, the most important thing to know to use meters intelligently is when to completely ignore them. Like when you didn't have a problem with not enough heals, it probably doesn't make much sense to look at the healing meters and judge the people who were lower. More DPS is always useful, to shorten the fight by 5 seconds if nothing else, but you can't heal more damage than your raid actually takes and meters get screwy when too many healers are competing to heal too little damage.


It's not just about HPS though, it's about contribution in general. If you assume that all other factors are equal, why would you not look at meters? And if you do not look at meters because you know all other factors are not equal, then you have to ask yourself why they are not equal, and if it's ok. Sometimes, a class will have an encounter tailored to them and meters become skewed as a result. Those are usually outliers, and to be expected sometimes, but not all the time. That is not an outlier, but a trend. What's trending now with Shaman...well, I can't think of a good reason for it to not be addressed.

I have also been on the mind lately that Shaman Mastery could stand to have a major rework. It's too imbalanced if it hinders their ability to get PvE related buffs to this degree for so long. I really wish Shaman had gotten the rework they were supposed to back before launch. No matter what they did or did not do in the beta, it's pretty depressing to see the exact same bad situation regarding Shaman raiding appear again like clockwork a full expansion later. It shows how little has meaningfully changed for the class between then and now. If they can't get major design flaws addressed between expansions, then when?
Edited by Thaimaishu on 3/12/2013 12:54 PM PDT
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