The Restoration Shaman Weakness

90 Pandaren Shaman
10440
Chain Heal seems to be our biggest problem right now. I can't speak to 25m raiding. Shaman do well enough single target healing and/or tank healing. We have always been great at stacked raid healing - as mentioned, this is our niche - spread aoe healing is our weakness.

Cool I get that. The problem lies that rarelly if ever will we see fights like Ultraxion where the raid is stacked where we actually get to use our niche to its full potential. The raid encounters are all about spread heavy hitting aoe damage requiring the raid to be topped off quickly. Unfortunately there isnt much that we can do, its leaving us feeling helpless, useless, and contemplating switching classes to benefit progression.

Sensations hit it on the head. They gave us riptide and chaining glyph...those do not and will not work, thats all it is. The penalty is too great for the demand. Chain heals long cast time + having riptide on a target first to get enough benefit to actually warrent using the spell is just too close to single target healing in HPM and HPS right now. Not to mention by the time you get the spell off there's no guarentee that it will hit the 4 targets due to movement requirements.

Chain heal is supposed to be our bread and butter spell, to me personally it feels clunky and near uselss right now and we are so constrained as to what we can do on those spread heavy movement fights that it makes it more stressful than fun to me.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Eh, I really liked Shaman Mastery for progression, or fights we were underhealing. But...

Yeah, maybe it does need to be reworked. On the other hand, I'm downright scared of what they might do to it.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
Yeah, maybe it does need to be reworked. On the other hand, I'm downright scared of what they might do to it.


Water Bubbles.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12985
Water Bubbles.


lol yes water bubble that what we need ;-)
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90 Draenei Shaman
11660
I'd love to see cheal radius and healing get buffed and Change the glyph to increase healing done but reduce the radius
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17835
Eh, I really liked Shaman Mastery for progression, or fights we were underhealing. But...

Yeah, maybe it does need to be reworked. On the other hand, I'm downright scared of what they might do to it.


Honestly, I hope they don't nerf our mastery to give us "buffs" elsewhere. People assume our large heals come solely from our mastery and they simply don't understand how the class works. Our mastery is simply a life saver, and I also don't understand the notion when people say it's stopping us from being balanced because that's simply foolish.

I also believe we're not anywhere near as bad as some people make it out to be, and I'm sure if it doesn't pick up Blizzard will give a small change. I'm just really focused on them giving us a small way to deal with this specific type of mechanic because that is the source of the problem, having no way to. If only their glyphs intended for this, worked.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12580
03/13/2013 10:24 AMPosted by Sensations
I'm just really focused on them giving us a small way to deal with this specific type of mechanic because that is the source of the problem, having no way to.


I'm with you on most of what you are saying, Sensations, but this sentence right here is where it stops for me, because I just don't think it's true, and I don't believe it has ever been true, post-Wrath.

Riôt
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
I think the "shaman's are pathetic" are a little overstated. But there are definite holes in the shaman kit.

While Chain Heal is an easy punching bag it's probably too messed up to fix coding wise... buffing Riptide/Glyph-Riptide to make it work would be better (glyphed should be at least 80-90% of rejuv). The fact is that instant heals are mobile heals. And outside of SWG and totems, we don't really have mobility. I barely can get off healing rains once SWG fades during Durumu's Beam (or Lei Shi's run away), I can't even imagine how a pair of shamans would heal that phase in 10 man... shy of nobody is allowed to take any extra damage.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17835
I'm just really focused on them giving us a small way to deal with this specific type of mechanic because that is the source of the problem, having no way to.


I'm with you on most of what you are saying, Sensations, but this sentence right here is where it stops for me, because I just don't think it's true, and I don't believe it has ever been true, post-Wrath.

Riôt


I'm confused as to what you're referencing? :o. It must be going right over my head ;_;

I think the "shaman's are pathetic" are a little overstated. But there are definite holes in the shaman kit.


I agree it is, a lot of Shamans are using raidbots and that's it. After healing normal clear and doing healing on heroic jin, I didn't feel as weak as "raidbots" said I was supposed to be. That being said, we still have a huge gap that doesn't need to be closed but does need to be lessened.
Edited by Sensations on 3/13/2013 1:36 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
While Chain Heal is an easy punching bag it's probably too messed up to fix coding wise


How much different could it be than the coding for CL which was just changed? I think coding is a term for "i think it is okay and we don't want to mess with it" when blizzard uses it. Same as "the game engine can't support increased jumps without unintended consequences".
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12580
I'm just really focused on them giving us a small way to deal with this specific type of mechanic because that is the source of the problem, having no way to.


The bolded part is what I have always had issue with, from Cata, until now. Do you mean to say no good way, or are you intending to literally say *no way.*

I agree it is, a lot of Shamans are using raidbots and that's it. After healing normal clear and doing healing on heroic jin, I didn't feel as weak as "raidbots" said I was supposed to be. That being said, we still have a huge gap that doesn't need to be closed but does need to be lessened.


This is something I can agree with, except for the *huge gap* part. I just don't think the gap is really all that large. I think the real problem, Sensations, is that there are too many Shamans who, for whatever reason, can't shift gears, and heal (use their toolkit) the way they need to in those situations.

Riôt
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
This is something I can agree with, except for the *huge gap* part. I just don't think the gap is really all that large. I think the real problem, Sensations, is that there are too many Shamans who, for whatever reason, can't shift gears, and heal (use their toolkit) the way they need to in those situations.

Riôt


K. So, because it's you, Riot, I'm suppressing my instinctive Shaman Rage button for the moment.

Would you, please, personally explain what a Shaman should use in those situations? How should a Shaman be shifting gears? And precisely which tools should a Shaman be using?

I am fascinated to hear what you have to say.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I just don't think the gap is really all that large. I think the real problem, Sensations, is that there are too many Shamans who, for whatever reason, can't shift gears, and heal (use their toolkit) the way they need to in those situations.

Riôt


I think that you frankly, have no idea what you are talking about. Unless you have actual experience healing as a Shaman in progression raiding (let alone actual high level raiding experience period), you really have no business basically saying "this is an l2p issue"

Shaman performance is strong if the following conditions are met.
1. The raid is stacked up sufficiently to get strong output from Healing Rain
2. There is not a lot of movement, or at least not so much movement that the raid isn't standing still for the duration of a Healing Rain
3. There is enough raid damage going out and the raid is at moderate to low health levels throughout most of the fight. The more absorb mechanics present, the less likely this will be.

If one of these three aren't the case, Shaman performance goes from very strong to average to low (this was the case through most of T14 - condition 3 in particular). If more than one of these 3 conditions aren't meant, Shaman output essentially tanks to the level that we are seeing so far in T15.

Here are the tools/options that we have to deal with the damage patterns in T15. It's a given that HST and RT will be used on near CD and HTT/Ascendance will be used as appropriate; this is the case no matter what the raid mechanics are.
1. Drop Healing Rain on near CD anyway; try to get it to at least hit 4+ people, probably melee - Because of where HR falls on the HPM/HPS scale, you pretty much have to do this 90% of the time - even on 3 targets, HR beats every other option that we have.
2. Glyph Riptide and try to use it similar to how a Druid uses Rejuv. This just isn't effective or worthwhile under any class mechanics, because the direct healing component is too important, and because the HoT itself is too weak
3. Use Glyph of Chaining and try and work in a 4 second CD Chain Heal into your casting rotation. Even when it hits 4 targets with Riptide on the initial target, Chain Heal is barely worthwhile, so using or not using this is fairly irrelevant in your performance under T15 raid mechanics.
4. Just try to keep up by playing single target whack a mole. This is more effective than glyphed Riptide, and is generally the only option that we have. Our single target heals are heavily suppressed by absorb mechanics, and as with any healer, resorting to using single target heals to try to heal AoE damage results in awful throughput.

The issue is, there is a huge, huge difference in Shaman output under ideal situations compared to situations like Firelands or like ToT. Other healers lose output, but we lose 30%+ of our total output under these conditions, and this is the nature of the gap. Unfortunately, Shaman appear to only be balanced around ideal conditions that do not exist in T15.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
This is something I can agree with, except for the *huge gap* part. I just don't think the gap is really all that large. I think the real problem, Sensations, is that there are too many Shamans who, for whatever reason, can't shift gears, and heal (use their toolkit) the way they need to in those situations.

The Shaman toolkit, in a spread situation, consists of Riptide, HST, Healing Wave, and GHW.

- Riptide has a CD. Eliminating the CD hurts its efficiency and throughput to the point that it's a quite weak spell.

- HST has only 50% uptime.

- HW is honestly tiny. Quick, yes. Efficient, yes. Adequate for any serious healing demand? Not really.

- GHW is expensive as all hell. Quick and powerful, but chews through mana like nothing else.

The problem is that the shaman toolkit is designed to be non-OP when used on top of Healing Rain, even when you've got a whole 25m raid standing in Healing Rain at 30% average health (granted they're quite strong when this happens, but not OP).

Given that Healing Rain is enormous and takes only a small fraction of the shaman's time, everything else has to be strictly limited either by mana, CD, or just base throughput. If shamans' non-position-sensitive spells could put out even 75% of the sustained healing of other healers' non-position-sensitive spells, then when you layered HR on top of those spells, they'd be blowing everyone else out of the water.

What shamans need is a tool that can't be used effectively on top of Healing Rain, but can replace a decent chunk of that missing healing when HR isn't appropriate. Perhaps an "Empower Chain Heal" ability that dramatically increases the range and strength of CH for 10 seconds, but shares a CD with HR. Balance it so it's about equivalent to HR+CH on 6 targets with 40% HR overhealing.
Edited by Kaels on 3/13/2013 3:07 PM PDT
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65 Dwarf Shaman
10415
The bolded part is what I have always had issue with, from Cata, until now. Do you mean to say no good way, or are you intending to literally say *no way.*

At that point, it is just arguing semantics. You can dig a trench with a spoon if you want. Is the spoon a better tool than having nothing? Probably. However, that does not mean it is actually effective.

Outside of HST, which has a 30 second CD, and Riptide, which has a 6 sec CD and is not any close to Rejuv or Renew in output, Shaman have no real toolkit to deal with in spread situations and movement.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
03/13/2013 01:42 PMPosted by Sadiemay
While Chain Heal is an easy punching bag it's probably too messed up to fix coding wise


How much different could it be than the coding for CL which was just changed? I think coding is a term for "i think it is okay and we don't want to mess with it" when blizzard uses it. Same as "the game engine can't support increased jumps without unintended consequences".


That was the line they used to give us all the time.

It's obviously a load of crap, however, given the CH glyph, and given they made the range of at least one other smart heal 40 yards.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Given that Healing Rain is enormous and takes only a small fraction of the shaman's time, everything else has to be strictly limited either by mana, CD, or just base throughput. If shamans' non-position-sensitive spells could put out even 75% of the sustained healing of other healers' non-position-sensitive spells, then when you layered HR on top of those spells, they'd be blowing everyone else out of the water.


I'm quite sure that is the developers' theory, but who knows if it would ever actually come to pass. I suppose it may have on a fight like ultraxion, but it never will in ToT. But in any event, a bit of a buff to chain heal and a baseline range increase is highly unlikely to suddenly make shaman blow everyone out of the water.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
This is something I can agree with, except for the *huge gap* part. I just don't think the gap is really all that large. I think the real problem, Sensations, is that there are too many Shamans who, for whatever reason, can't shift gears, and heal (use their toolkit) the way they need to in those situations.

Riôt


K. So, because it's you, Riot, I'm suppressing my instinctive Shaman Rage button for the moment.

Would you, please, personally explain what a Shaman should use in those situations? How should a Shaman be shifting gears? And precisely which tools should a Shaman be using?

I am fascinated to hear what you have to say.


<3
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
It's obviously a load of crap, however, given the CH glyph, and given they made the range of at least one other smart heal 40 yards.

1) 30 yards. Why does everyone think PoH/CoH/WG are 40? PoH hasn't been 40 since Wrath, and CoH and WG were always 30.

2) CH and PoM use a different targeting mechanic from other smart heals, and the mechanic they use is substantially more computation-intensive; the server basically has to do 4 times the computational work, because it has to locate viable targets and rank them after each jump. The computation involves doing a square root for every target the spell considers; square roots are slow, and become much slower as numbers get bigger.

It's entirely possible that they have a performance target (number of CPU cycles on the server) for each spell mechanic and they weren't able to hit that target for CH at longer ranges. (That may explain their choice to limit the glyph by cooldown; they might have been able to get approval to use a more computationally-intensive spell as long as the server wasn't getting spammed with it every 2 seconds.)
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