The Restoration Shaman Weakness

90 Pandaren Priest
14930
They might have been able to get approval to use a more computationally-intensive spell as long as the server wasn't getting spammed with it every 2 seconds.)


Doesn't quite make sense to me, given that you can stack as many Shaman as you want, all with the glyph, and it's not like the server crashes.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
03/13/2013 03:28 PMPosted by Kaels
Why does everyone think PoH/CoH/WG are 40?


Kael, Atonement is 40 yards. I know PoH isn't because you've reminded me multiple times. :)

Edit: I also find the alleged computational restriction to be deeply implausible. They put a cooldown as part of the glyph because they developed a hard*n for making most glyphs have a punitive aspect. That makes it "interesting" you see.
Edited by Taymage on 3/13/2013 3:37 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
The problem is that the shaman toolkit is designed to be non-OP when used on top of Healing Rain, even when you've got a whole 25m raid standing in Healing Rain at 30% average health (granted they're quite strong when this happens, but not OP).


I don't understand your logic here at all. If stacked healing is suppose to be our niche, as Blizzard insists it is, we should be OP in this situation. Not viable. OP.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
03/13/2013 03:30 PMPosted by Tiriel
They might have been able to get approval to use a more computationally-intensive spell as long as the server wasn't getting spammed with it every 2 seconds.)


Doesn't quite make sense to me, given that you can stack as many Shaman as you want, all with the glyph, and it's not like the server crashes.

Well, one raid isn't going to crash the instance server in any case (outside of major bugs), but it's possible that a few thousand shamans across several hundred raids might be able to have a negative impact on performance/stability.
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03/13/2013 03:03 PMPosted by Kaels
What shamans need is a tool that can't be used effectively on top of Healing Rain, but can replace a decent chunk of that missing healing when HR isn't appropriate.


What about scaling Chain Heal up when the jump distance is longer?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
03/13/2013 03:33 PMPosted by Pebble
The problem is that the shaman toolkit is designed to be non-OP when used on top of Healing Rain, even when you've got a whole 25m raid standing in Healing Rain at 30% average health (granted they're quite strong when this happens, but not OP).


I don't understand your logic here at all. If stacked healing is suppose to be our niche, as Blizzard insists it is, we should be OP in this situation. Not viable. OP.

You should clearly be the strongest healer in this situation, but 'OP' implies that you break game mechanics. You shouldn't be strong enough to trivialize the damage or significantly reduce the number of healers needed to deal with it - just strong enough to make it noticeably easier in the same way that a druid makes a mobile spread situation easier.

And that's about where you are. The problem is that you drop off badly from that point; a druid doesn't lose any healing when they have to stand still in a stack (they actually gain some), but you lose a crapton when you have to move and spread.
Edited by Kaels on 3/13/2013 3:42 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
03/13/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Taymage
Why does everyone think PoH/CoH/WG are 40?


Kael, Atonement is 40 yards. I know PoH isn't because you've reminded me multiple times. :)

Edit: I also find the alleged computational restriction to be deeply implausible. They put a cooldown as part of the glyph because they developed a hard*n for making most glyphs have a punitive aspect. That makes it "interesting" you see.

I'm just speculating on the possible reason they chose the particular downside they did.

They could have changed the mana cost or the healing or the number of jumps or something, but they chose to add a cooldown, after explaining that there were technical problems with increasing the range, so...speculating about how those pieces fit together.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
03/13/2013 03:16 PMPosted by Taymage
It's obviously a load of crap, however, given the CH glyph, and given they made the range of at least one other smart heal 40 yards.


That "game engine can't support it" excuse was used once, AFAIK, in all of Blizzard's history by Zahrym--who isn't a game developer. I get they are supposed to fill in as a middle-man but it really can't be taken to such extremes. Zahyrm isn't a programmer and it's very possible he simply used vocabulary not only that he is familiar with but that also the community would understand at a glance.

CH coding, just by virtue of how the spell functions, is probably pretty messy. Messing around with the core of it probably isn't ideal either. That doesn't mean they can't tweak it though.

Doesn't quite make sense to me, given that you can stack as many Shaman as you want, all with the glyph, and it's not like the server crashes.


I doubt it's related, but if you've ever seen the graphical bug where CH jumps to BFE, it causes the screen to tear.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025

This is something I can agree with, except for the *huge gap* part. I just don't think the gap is really all that large. I think the real problem, Sensations, is that there are too many Shamans who, for whatever reason, can't shift gears, and heal (use their toolkit) the way they need to in those situations.

Riôt


I don't think of myself as having trouble switching gears, if the gear you are meant to switch to is single target wackamole. Which honestly, I don't have a problem with, and as a 10 man healer in a guild that isn't the best at stacking, I have a lot of comfort and experience with. I was , for the most part, *the* tank healer.

I think part of the problem that we are experiencing now, is the high movement fights not only negatively impact the effectiveness of our HR, but also our effectiveness at single target wackmole.

Shamans are turrets. Our mobility is crappy, SWG aside. It was not a problem, in MSV-ToES, to turret. There was some "get out of the bad" stuff of course, as there always is, but not to the degree of ToT encounters. Probably the worst example I can think of was Sha, but since there was a lot of stacking I wasn't too hurt by it.

The mobility required of the entire raid (aka, us running around also) in ToT makes it very difficult for us to GHW bomb to heal AoE damage - which is our only option when the raid is scattered and HT is on CD or being saved for something. Even Ascendance, without HR to call on, suffers dramatically. (And don't get me started on SLT. I love it but oh, how I hate it at the same time.) More haste won't fix it. I wish it were that easy. Chain casting surge is not sustainable.

It's easy to say, well, then don't turret! Use your smart heals! At which point I must direct you to Chain Heal still suffering from post-Sunwell trauma and outdated range limitations, and HR requiring people to at least be ABLE to stand where it was placed, which with unpredictable movement required with high frequency, is nigh impossible.

I've only gotten as far as attempts on Tortos, and I honestly can't remember the last time I felt so ineffective or frustrated with healing. Looking at the bosses moving forward does not inspire confidence. :P
Edited by Fluffy on 3/13/2013 3:59 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105

You should clearly be the strongest healer in this situation, but 'OP' implies that you break game mechanics. You shouldn't be strong enough to trivialize the damage or significantly reduce the number of healers needed to deal with it - just strong enough to make it noticeably easier in the same way that a druid makes a mobile spread situation easier.

And that's about where you are.


We actually are not the strongest healer in stacked situations. The classic stacked healing example was Ultraxion, and while this was with previous expansion mechanics, Shaman were only middle of the pack. The two real stack fights that come to mind in T14 are Garalon (you have either the melee or ranged groups tightly stacked) and Heroic Elite Protectors (in P3, the ranged group is generally stacked and taking huge damage). Shaman were nowhere near the top on either fight.

I dispute the notion that Shaman are even the strongest healers in their niche. I would argue that we are strong to middle of the pack under ideal conditions - completely terrible outside of idea conditions.
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100 Orc Shaman
22250
TL;DR : Shaman mastery is great under ideal circumstances but therein lies the problem we are almost never at ideal circumstances. Factor DPriests and HPals into the raid and we go from almost never to never because their mastery/class mechanics directly hinder our ability to use our mastery which isn't a bad thing because absorbs are overpowered.

First boss heroic ToT I could justify bringing my RShaman because my healing output during storms was extremely high rotating HTT and Ascendance+spiritwalkers. On the second boss I am forced to acknowledged that what is needed is my DPriest to heal that is 15ilvls lower has a 10x better toolkit and 6k less spirit but less mana problems.

I don't want to have to play my priest for the tier blizzard but if I want to raid progression it looks like I have no choice since I am raiding in a 10man guild.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
03/13/2013 04:00 PMPosted by Tiberria
Garalon


25 man.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17450
Nvm.
Edited by Sensations on 3/13/2013 4:45 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Shaman
10345
just to throw out some ideas on how to make chain heal more effective without breaking it:

1) bake in the chaining glyph, and change this glyph to make it instant cast but have X second CD.

2) even out the HPS between jumps which makes the above much less attractive to arena/pvp.

3) change how it interacts with tidal waves... instead of creating tidal waves have it use them and decrease the cast time, to compensate take out the RT buff (or lessen it).

4) on top of all of this it needs a modest increase to the spellpower modifier so that it scales better with gear.

I think all of these changes are very doable without breaking the spell and are something that can be done mid-xpac, which is very much needed.

another option is to slightly nerf healing rain throughput and compensate by a LARGE buff to chain heal. Leaving our stacked heals relatively the same but with the above our spread healing would improve drastically.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7640
Taking out the RT buff would gimp us significantly, I agree with having the glyph making CH instant with a cool down, how ever if they dont increase the coefficients of chain heal it will hurt us more than help us in our "niche". Chain heal either needs to be buffed considerably or the riptide glyph needs redesigned(loss of the direct heal increases the healing of the HoT component and also reduces the mana cost) to make it sustainable to blanket the raid with during movement.
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90 Goblin Shaman
10345
Taking out the RT buff would gimp us significantly


actually it wouldnt, you are a talking about a 1-2% nerf tops under current conditions. You have to consider how often you overheal because you prioritize using chain heal on someone with RT that doesn't need the biggest chain heal jump. I would rather see chain heal be useful on its own without having to "line up" my chain heal with a RT beforehand... and then watch it overheal because the 3.5+ seconds it took to RT + CH ruined what i had planned.

03/13/2013 11:07 PMPosted by Shammyjake
how ever if they dont increase the coefficients of chain heal it will hurt us more than help us in our "niche".


the point is that we need a very small (if any) buff in our niche while drastically improving what we can do out of our niche. I'm fine with them taking away things in our niche to give us better tools outside of it.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7640
I honestly think the best suggestions I've heard are
1.) make CH instant cast with a cd and increase coefficient by %20
2.)Increase the duration of HST to at least 30 seconds.
3.)redesign the RT glyph so the HoT does more healing and reduce the mana cost since it's current state it's weaker than rejuve but costs the same.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17450
I honestly think the best suggestions I've heard are
1.) make CH instant cast with a cd and increase coefficient by %20


I don't think it needs to be instant, but being 1.5 base would be a welcome start.

2.)Increase the duration of HST to at least 30 seconds.


Would simply be too strong, we're talking about a theoretical 100% increase to a spell that can already be our top heal this tier. HST is perfect as it is.


3.)redesign the RT glyph so the HoT does more healing and reduce the mana cost since it's current state it's weaker than rejuve but costs the same.


I'd prefer not to have a copy of rejuv, but something should be done. The best starting place would be to reduce the reduction to a point where it's not too strong in PvP but also has a downside. The mana cost is fine, we don't need to be spamming riptide nonstop.
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