muscle memory != atonement

90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
In order to remedy jab jab uplift spam blizz made it so that to use jab, it MUST be followed by either BoK or tiger palm, which means WAY less uplifts and enveloping mist. This is also supposed to be our form of atonement healing. Only problem is priest atonement is a flat out healing increase because its HPM of using atonment heals over normal heals is much higher. For us it is a HPM decrease, and because many fights aren't 3 minutes long the HPM of heals greatly outweighs the HPS. Just doing napkin math the HPM of fistweaving to soothing mist spam is 40% less.

Now why on earth would we EVER fistweave unless it was an easy fight that didn't really need 3 full time healers? Why is it that priests get to DPS and have a boost to healing while monks, who sacrifice more, have to lose 40% healing just to dps?

would love to have a reason to dps as often as priests do
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14780
I don't mean offense by this...but you aren't a priest so why do you want to be like a priest but not play a priest? People complain that other classes have things they want and then other people complain that classes are becoming too similar. Give disc priests an instant tranq that also dispels if monks get atonement quality dps healing.
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
Priests should, in general, just shut up. Ovi is a prime example.

Disc is still quite strong, probably OP, despite taking massive nerfs. And you can do non-negligible dps while barely losing any healing potency. Just hush and enjoy it.

And atonement is just an "option" for Disc priests. Fistweaving in a sometimes on/sometimes off requirement for Monks to function... yet is a second rate version of what you get for much less effort. No surprise they'd like it to be better.

and who doesn't want to "be like a priest" (i.e. insane utility, top of the line heals, absorbs)?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14780
People who post on level 1 alts should, in general, just shut up.

I wasn't intending to insult anyone or any class by my previous post. Now it's turning into "I want to be a priest but don't listen to what priests have to say because they are all OP so I want to play a class that I think is worse but still be as good."

Last I heard, Holy pallys are becoming the new disc priest.

Also, saying atonement "is just an option" is laughable.
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90 Goblin Priest
8550
what do you not like about mistweaving, that you wish was like atonement. Just the conversion? or the playstyle? how do you want to play your monk? do you want to PvP PvE?

If you think disc is watching a dps meter and not the raids health bars, then dont panic, its not. i throw out heals just as much as I stand and fire smite and dispel and bubble and spirit shell and use every other great utility ability that everyone hates because of envy but enjoys when there about to bite it.

take Big Bird for example. On day phase I heal him, on night phase i dps him. Its like that on alot of fights.

if you look at this post here

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197861455

i too do some table math and show that disc too got a silent nerf hidden as a mechanic change.
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90 Human Priest
13720
03/14/2013 07:26 PMPosted by Imgandiloljk
Only problem is priest atonement is a flat out healing increase because its HPM of using atonment heals over normal heals is much higher.


This is basically only true on a boss with a damage buff/damage taken debuff. You aren't going to be smiting through say... light spectrum on durumu or quills or something raidwide that matters. That being said, I agree with you that the devs may not be sure where they want to go with fistweaving versus other monk healing. It may just be difficult (similar to the way it is hard for the devs to really balance absorbs vs other heals) to balance fistweave healing with normal heals and give it an appropriate (and not punishing) mana cost.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
03/14/2013 07:26 PMPosted by Imgandiloljk
In order to remedy jab jab uplift spam blizz made it so that to use jab, it MUST be followed by either BoK or tiger palm, which means WAY less uplifts and enveloping mist.

Yes. That was the point. Entire sections of our toolkit were being ignored simply because hybrid healing was just too powerful, and the added damage utility we gave through autoattacks and Jab made other healers less useful as a result. Plus, pretty much free healing. By dividing our toolkit into either casting or damaging, we stop that slippery slope in its tracks and have great ways of dealing with different phases of different fights.

Jin'rohk was brought up, and that's a great example of when Fistweaving is largely a better option than Mistweaving. The added damage means bigger heals, which are all smart casted, and you add to teh overall damage done, which is not a bad thing in the slightest.

03/14/2013 07:26 PMPosted by Imgandiloljk
This is also supposed to be our form of atonement healing. Only problem is priest atonement is a flat out healing increase because its HPM of using atonment heals over normal heals is much higher. For us it is a HPM decrease, and because many fights aren't 3 minutes long the HPM of heals greatly outweighs the HPS. Just doing napkin math the HPM of fistweaving to soothing mist spam is 40% less.

Two things:

1) If you really want to use atonement healing so bad, then roll a disc priest. Fistweaving is a largely mana-neutral alternative to hard casting, and gives us a quick utility that we can switch to in a moment's notice.
2) Ghostcrawler has stated that they didn't want fistweaving to be equal to hardcasting. And I honestly agree; even atonement healing doesn't have maximum DPS and HPS output compared to other healers' throughput. Being able to deal damage while still maintaining a prominent place on the healing charts would be incredibly broken; it'd make monks a must-have for heroic progression fights.
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90 Goblin Priest
8550
but but

3 heals, 2 of them attonement style, would equate to the dmg of 8 dps, with the healing of 3.

right?
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
Being able to deal damage while still maintaining a prominent place on the healing charts would be incredibly broken; it'd make monks a must-have for heroic progression fights.


As I'm sure some will be quick to point out how well Disc is looking with heavy Atonement play:

The current, early normal modes have a lot of light, intermittent damage, allowing Disc to shine. Some fights showcase this more than others.
Edited by Elethia on 3/15/2013 11:48 AM PDT
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If a disc priest decided her rotation woud be nothing but smite and PW:Shield on cd... that might not be ideal.

Fistweaving and mistweaving's biggest problem is the assumption that they should play like my above disc priest and spam a limited list no matter what.

Ideally you want to be in melee, and once there using a triage and priority mentality to decide whether or not to jab, rm, em, tp, spin kick, or type /lol emotes...
- use the toolset to its fullest, minus maybe the lol part...
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90 Orc Warrior
12740
Fistweaving is also WAY to expensive and if targets are more than 20 yards from our statue, it's rendering us useless to the targets that actually need healing. Plus staying on top of mana tea @ 2 stacks is very difficult (takes too long to build at times if we don't get lucky with our crit giving us 2 for 1).
Edited by Peelsforyou on 3/15/2013 11:43 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Monk
17435
Plus staying on top of mana tea @ 2 stacks is very difficult (takes too long to build at times if we don't get lucky with our crit giving us 2 for 1).

Sounds like a personal problem.

I was going to respond to this thread last night but then I saw who posted it. Kind of hoped the thread would just die but oh well, I'll bite.

You don't use Enveloping while fistweaving, first of all. Secondly, if you're fistweaving and feel you aren't generating enough chi, spec out of Ascension and spec into either Power Strikes or Chi Brew.

The only complaints I have regarding Eminence vs Atonement is that Eminence has a 20 yard range (20 yards from the monk and 20 yards from the statue, should be at least 30 imo) and that single-target a Disc Priest can still generally out-damage me without much trouble - Atonement is flat-out an easier playstyle/mechanic to orchestrate than fistweaving, especially now that you can royally screw yourself over if you accidentally jab twice in a row.

However, fistweaving is still workable, and does better on some fights than others. You're overreacting a bit, and pointing fingers at disc priests is not the solution.
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100 Undead Priest
17125
If I use atonement my HPS goes down. Massively.
If I use atonement during low damage phases and then pop wings and heal my balls off when damage is high, my HPS goes up.

Disc Priests aren't casting smites during Quills, we're casting PoH or Offensive Penance.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8505
[
Yes. That was the point. Entire sections of our toolkit were being ignored simply because hybrid healing was just too powerful, and the added damage utility we gave through autoattacks and Jab made other healers less useful as a result. Plus, pretty much free healing. By dividing our toolkit into either casting or damaging, we stop that slippery slope in its tracks and have great ways of dealing with different phases of different fights.


What "entire sections of the toolkit do you mean? Soothing Mists and Enveloping? Those are the only spells I can think of that Monks may have been ignoring while sticking in melee range. Jab, TP, BoK, SCK, Uplift and the T30 were all used extensively. The added damage in 5.1 was also negligible. All through Beta there were discussions about the two styles and how they were meant to be equally viable. 5.2 had multiple 180's in design for Monks.

I don't think it had anything to do with what you describe. Jab was too efficient as a Chi Builder much like Holy Light on the Beacon was too efficient for Pally's in early Cata. If the only issue was the hybrid style Blizzard could have made Soothing tics automatically generate Chi and leave the damage from Fistweaving alone.


Two things:

1) If you really want to use atonement healing so bad, then roll a disc priest. Fistweaving is a largely mana-neutral alternative to hard casting, and gives us a quick utility that we can switch to in a moment's notice.
2) Ghostcrawler has stated that they didn't want fistweaving to be equal to hardcasting. And I honestly agree; even atonement healing doesn't have maximum DPS and HPS output compared to other healers' throughput. Being able to deal damage while still maintaining a prominent place on the healing charts would be incredibly broken; it'd make monks a must-have for heroic progression fights.


From his posts I think the intent is for Monks to do similar DPS and Healing while Fistweaving as a Disc would when using Atonement. If they aren't balanced right now then one is either too good or one needs to be Buffed.
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96 Tauren Priest
10205
I'll just give my opinion on this matter from having healed all of tier 14 as a Mistweaver Monk and currently having decided to return to my Discipline Priest after the 5.2 changes to Mistweavers.

Currently, as Fistweaving is currently implemented, I find several issues with it.

  • It requires far too much commitment to be effective. A Mistweaver must Fistweave or Mistweave; you cannot do both and maintain mana and effectiveness.
  • It is impossible to intersperse a ranged healing style with Fistweaving, something Discipline can do with Atonement easily.
  • The cost of a mistake such as having two stacks of Serpent's Zeal drop or jabbing twice in a row are far too cost prohibitive, and mistakes that are easy to make.
  • Monitoring Mana Tea stacks is extremelly difficult without an addon such as Weak Auras.
  • Fistweaving has a range that is too small.


  • These issues are ones that Discipline priests do not have, I can easily intersperse my Atonement healing throughout my normal priority system and not see myself run out of mana or be negativley affected by seeing my HPS drop. Add to that the fact that I have Archangel available that will buff not just my Atonement healing but all of my healing for a significant amount, and that the buff can be appliadle as a mitigation style healing over HPS (SPirit Shell) and I cannot see how someone cannot view Atonement as being better than Fistweaving.

    The big issue that makes Atonement greater than Fistweaving for me is the fact that Archangel is available through Atonement healing, and that it provides a static 15% healing buff across the board, the fact that I do not skirt disaster by using Smite twice in a row by accident, and its excellent mana consumption to heal ratio.

    Don't get me wrong, I really like my monk and I had wanted to continue healing on him for the foreseeable future. However, with the current implementation of Mistweavers we have a clunky and difficult to wield healing spec that is not intuitive and doesn't really work well with the existing healing classes. It is far too punishing for simple mistakes, and doesn't bring enough secondary utility spells such as mana regeneration and damage mitigation. Revival is also a fairly weak raid healing cooldown when compared to other existing cooldowns such as Tranquility, Power Word: Barrier, and Divine Hymn this is mostly evident in 25-man settings though.

    On fights that do not have a damage modifier effect Discipline will outperform Mistweavers 95% of the time, it's a difficult reality for those of us who enjoy monk healing. The fact that monks NEED a damage modifier fight to maintain competitiveness against classes such as Holy Paladins should demonstrate their overall ineffectiveness with their current implementation. I have not given up on the class, however, I remember the early days of Death Knights and I know that in time the class will have its kinks ironed out and will come into its own as a respectable healer; however, as things currently stand they seem to be more of a liability for progress than a catalyst for it.
    Edited by Safyr on 3/15/2013 1:48 PM PDT
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    90 Blood Elf Monk
    8360
    If I use atonement my HPS goes down. Massively.
    If I use atonement during low damage phases and then pop wings and heal my balls off when damage is high, my HPS goes up.


    if i atonement my hpm goes down 40% (hpm more important than hps, since monks have the highest hps just by spamming surging mist)

    how is losing 40% healing efficiency worth 30k dps?

    First boss in ToT, you should be fistweaving in the water.

    i do, my guild also way outgears it so mana never becomes and issue, however, should the fight last 5-6 minutes as it should i wouldn't have the mana efficiency to stay fistingweaving 24/7... meanwhile disc priests GAINS mana efficiency by using atonement, regardless of a damage modifier.

    i dont want disc to get nurfed, i want monks fistweaving to not be a staggering drop in healing efficiency.

    either make eminence healing 100% non-auto attack damage or reduce jab mana cost to 6% instead of 8% or make it so jab makes tiger palm also cost no chi, that way fistweaving wouldn't be a close loop of jab tp jab tp jab tp jab tp jab tp and we'd have chi being generated to go to uplifts or enveloping mists, or BoK.
    Edited by Imgandiloljk on 3/15/2013 7:24 PM PDT
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    90 Blood Elf Monk
    8360
    also i dont have a problem with fistweaving healing range, we already can aoe heal up to 120 yards away with ReM + uplift and the ReM glyph (which is mandatory)
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    90 Worgen Hunter
    12650
    To put it simply Monk != Priest, problem solved.
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    90 Blood Elf Monk
    8360
    To put it simply Monk != Priest, problem solved.


    this isn't a class vs class thread, it's a specific mechanic vs. specific mechanic thred
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