muscle memory != atonement

90 Human Monk
17840
Luckily Mistweaving is better and more enjoyable than it's ever been. Anyone who enjoyed jab-jab-uplift is crazy!

Who ever did it for fun? It was born from not having better, more reliable AoE healing choices + not having reliable ranged chi generation.

But instead of fixing both issues, they made the whole thing impossible.

Beta fistweaving was more fun. It was still about Jab for chi -> TP/BoK to spend it, just doing far less damage (which would be easily corrected) but without the constant pitfalls caused by Muscle Memory.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
03/16/2013 08:46 PMPosted by Litchi
Luckily Mistweaving is better and more enjoyable than it's ever been. Anyone who enjoyed jab-jab-uplift is crazy!

Who ever did it for fun? It was born from not having better, more reliable AoE healing choices + not having reliable ranged chi generation.

But instead of fixing both issues, they made the whole thing impossible.

Beta fistweaving was more fun. It was still about Jab for chi -> TP/BoK to spend it, just doing far less damage (which would be easily corrected) but without the constant pitfalls caused by Muscle Memory.

my beef is that to encourage a more diverse healing rotation than [R J U J J U]x3498734 they flat out removed the option to use jab for fast uplifts, so now we just use soothing for cheap uplifts... what's next? soothing mist costs 10% of our mana per tick but using enveloping mist restores 15% mana? it seems to me that blizzard doesn't like us using uplift and instead of changing the heal they're changing how you get to use the heal
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8525

my beef is that to encourage a more diverse healing rotation ......


I think making the healing more diverse was the spin used not the actual reason for the changes. These devs are Left Brained numbers geeks. It's always about how the numbers fit in their balance formulas. Creative design is not their strength. The lead dev is a former scientist after all not an artist.

Jab/Jab/Uplift was too efficient in the minds of the devs. In the same way Pally heals are more expensive to balance out free Holy Power healing they felt guaranteed Chi every second was too good. If they just wanted to encourage diverse play they could have made Soothing get one Chi per tic and lose the RNG.

It's obvious the spec needs a complete rework which won't come until the Beta for 6.0. Fistweaving needs to feel more like a melee DPS spec with a priority system and more procs. The spec also needs way more control of where the healing is going and less dependence on RNG. One of the reasons I miss the old Chi Burst so much is it was the only AoE heal that I felt like was fully in my control.
Edited by Indyana on 3/16/2013 9:58 PM PDT
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100 Undead Priest
10000

I was under the impression that a significant boost in DPS is why one would opt for fistweaving.


If you consider "significant" significantly less than a disc priest on the majority of fights. Fistweaving is also bad, and sometimes downright detrimental on fights like Iron Qon thanks to the fact that it's melee.

Fistweaving is lower DPS than a disc priest, as well as less meter healing (ZOMG METERZ,) as well as being less desired thanks to it being melee-based.

Luckily Mistweaving is better and more enjoyable than it's ever been. Anyone who enjoyed jab-jab-uplift is crazy!

In the end, MW is still a relatively new class, and if you consider how long it took them to get DKs in the right spot, I am not really too worried.


So you're saying that Fistweaving is never worth using at all?
Edited by Multicidez on 3/16/2013 10:08 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360


If you consider "significant" significantly less than a disc priest on the majority of fights. Fistweaving is also bad, and sometimes downright detrimental on fights like Iron Qon thanks to the fact that it's melee.

Fistweaving is lower DPS than a disc priest, as well as less meter healing (ZOMG METERZ,) as well as being less desired thanks to it being melee-based.

Luckily Mistweaving is better and more enjoyable than it's ever been. Anyone who enjoyed jab-jab-uplift is crazy!

In the end, MW is still a relatively new class, and if you consider how long it took them to get DKs in the right spot, I am not really too worried.


So you're saying that Fistweaving is never worth using at all?

nice strawman
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90 Night Elf Druid
13360
Firstly, do everyone a favor and look at Blood Legion's heroic kills of 5.2 bosses. The monk healer consistently is topping / 2nd. Notice how he isn't doing as much fist weaving anymore? Might be time you all made the change and stopped doing it?
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
Firstly, do everyone a favor and look at Blood Legion's heroic kills of 5.2 bosses. The monk healer consistently is topping / 2nd. Notice how he isn't doing as much fist weaving anymore? Might be time you all made the change and stopped doing it?


I think you might be missing the point. The OP (and many here) want FW to be worth doing in meaningful content and work better with the kit, in the same way Atonement is worth doing in meaningful content and works well with the non-Atonement Priest kit (via Evangelism-type stuff I guess?). Just because that is how the optimal playstyle is right now and we might be willing to do it doesn't mean we want it to stay that way.
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90 Night Elf Monk
6265
dotn forget that jab isnt your only chi generator guys, you still have EH and RM.

the biggest issue i see though, it with jab for mistweavers, its just too expensive, plain and simple. it was like that before muscle memory and it is still. At least in terms of making eminence alone a viable healing option. (even if it cost next to nothing, did next to no dmg but generated 1 chi, it would be a step in the right direction.)

But if anyone says that fistweaving is mana neutral/positive right now, I would love to see their build and rotation, because I don't see how it can at all. The mana:heal ratio just isn't there from what I can see.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
dotn forget that jab isnt your only chi generator guys, you still have EH and RM.

the biggest issue i see though, it with jab for mistweavers, its just too expensive, plain and simple. it was like that before muscle memory and it is still. At least in terms of making eminence alone a viable healing option. (even if it cost next to nothing, did next to no dmg but generated 1 chi, it would be a step in the right direction.)

But if anyone says that fistweaving is mana neutral/positive right now, I would love to see their build and rotation, because I don't see how it can at all. The mana:heal ratio just isn't there from what I can see.

It is largely mana neutral for me, and my gear sucks. I never, ever try to jab twice: If I ever need the second Chi, I use Expel Harm or keep Renewing Mist on cooldown, or rely on a Vital Mists proc. When I fistweave, I keep an almost 100% uptime on Serpent's Zeal (that last little bit is the beginning), and put out some pretty hearty damage. I actually have never struggled for Chi, and even if I accidentally Jab twice, it's not quite as damning as people make it out to. This isn't even factoring in mana tea, and once I add that to my rotation, combined with the macro to my Shieldwall trinket, I find myself swimming in mana.
Edited by Fistlobster on 3/17/2013 7:36 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7910
in my experience...FW'ing is just fine for heroics 5mans and LFR. as far as being mana neutral, i would say that you must be giving yourself a good 1 1,000 count in between attacks....i have the same spirit as you do Fistlobster and can only FW on a dummy for 2 mins before my mana is dry. not including ReM and EH. after you enter normal raids and heroic raids.....it is, 'for me' an "only fistweave at appropriate times". pre 5.2 i used to FW all the time. but for the sake of the chi to uplift more.
examples of appropriate times would be....all of elegon, chasing legs on garalon. 1st boss in ToT (when in puddles) execute phase of Horridon. honestly though, i really dont find FW'ing to be a reliable form of healing anymore....this is of course my opinion and i dont have a problem getting challenged on this...i would however ask that if anyone says..."but i own raids FW'ing".....show me a log where you did competitive healing and eminence was at least 25% of your healing, POST 5.2. i only say that to say that you cannot compare atonement with MM as atonement can and will do 25% of a disc priest healing fairly easy.

also another huge difference is that atonement is a side effect for stacking evang...its a per-requisite for disc healing whereas FW is NOT.
Edited by Petenorth on 3/17/2013 8:07 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
the biggest issue i see though, it with jab for mistweavers, its just too expensive, plain and simple


It is largely mana neutral for me, and my gear sucks


i would say that you must be giving yourself a good 1 1,000 count in between attacks....i have the same spirit as you do Fistlobster and can only FW on a dummy for 2 mins before my mana is dry


fistweaving costs roughly 20% more mana than soothing mist spamming.... so when you're going "ohhhh fistweaving drains my mana ohhhhh" its only 20% less efficient. With that said, it's 20% more mana for 100% more healing (only looking at fistweaving compared to soothing mist spam). The reason fistweaving is broken is that it inhibits our ability to use uplift or enveloping mist.... in other words, fistweaving is 20% more mana for 100% more healing compared to ONE SPELL being used while mistweaving.... mistweaving rips ahead because all the chi being generated by the weak soothing mist goes into uplift spamming which ends up being the same HPS as fistweaving.

in a nutshell, read my earlier post........ i made that post to stop people from derailing this thread by discussing how oom they go when fistweaving
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95 Human Priest
16945
I don't understand this thread, but I'm not writing off anyone's opinions either. So if you can provide math or practical 'rotations' I'd be closer to seeing what you're seeing. In all of my tests, monks doing fistweaving will always do more damage than disc priests. Even accounting strange buffs (and weird variables like glancing blows) disc priests moving out of spirit and taking more pure throughput stats (which will oom them quicker than the monk rotations) can't push as much damage as monks.

If you're hps meter-whoring, DA from atonement crits might be sniping heals. But for mana purposes, each jab+tp is 8% of your base mana, but 5% is coming back to you (muscle memory and mana tea). With ascension and the optional Ember Primal Diamond, this could get up to 5.9% of that mana back; or in other words, you're draining 2%-3% of your mana every 2 seconds depending on your talent/meta gem choice. A priest's Smite, for comparison's sake, will drain 2.5%-4.25% mana every 2 seconds depending on evangelism stacks and spell haste (0 to 5 stacks, 0% to 16.6% haste). So I don't understand the efficiency points being made.

Also, archangel is a cooldown, with a down period. If you are hitting it every 30 seconds (at 5 stacks of evangelism), you're getting that extra 25% for 18 seconds, but that's 15% overall. If you 'weave' short cooldown spells (like penance and holy fire) or hang onto your evangelism stacks for periods of burst, like using archangel once per minute, that's a 7.5% boost to your overall throughput.

I guess I also want to know what fistweavers are casting that's ooming you so fast, and what are your gearing choices (spirit>haste to breakpoint>crit>mastery I hope). Again, no harm intended. Just clarification.
Edited by Twistedmind on 3/18/2013 1:58 AM PDT
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8 Dwarf Priest
0
would love to have a reason to dps as often as priests do


hey man. you're probably going to be waiting a long time to have this reason imo.

the way i see it, atonement is operating from a completely different design philosophy than muscle memory/fistweaving. atonement wants the priest to enjoy and feel rewarded from adding dps to the raid as much as the raid enjoys and feels rewarded by receiving it. on the other hand, fistweaving may benefit the raid, but feels more like a punishment to the monk for dps behavior instead of a reward (because apparently you're supposed to be a ranged healer).

in addition to that, atonement is a non-complicated, non-restrictive option you can seamlessly weave in and out of your normal healing style at any convenient moment from your standard healing distance, and can revert to normal healing whenever you want or need to at no cost to the player. on the other hand, fistweaving requires you to change from ranged to melee (because apparently monks are now ranged healers - as if WoW needed another one) and applies many restrictions that prevent seamless integration into the toolkit. for instance if you jab, and do not cast blackout kick or tiger palm directly afteward, you lose mana. if you jab twice in a row, you lose mana.

fistweaving basically competes with mistweaving instead of adding to it, and demands levels of commitment in button pressing sequences that detract in a more general fashion from the typical gameplay and reaction time required to be a great healer.

if there's anything i could change about fistweaving, it would be to make it the main way for monks to heal. the only way for them to heal. the last thing this game needed was another ranged healing spec. it was a waste of energy, time, and money to add another ranged healing spec, the devs were critically incompetent in conveying the design goal that this would primarily be another ranged healing spec, and what we got was a glorified druid analogue with better single target healing mechanics, worse AoE healing (mechanically, though perhaps more OP in terms of straight throughput), and a melee subspec that not only doesn't live up to the original promise i, and i'm willing to bet many others, were eagerly anticipating, but also frustrates traditional healing gameplay style to the point its no longer worth attempting to use except for gimmicks.
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90 Human Priest
13720
The trouble with, and danger of creating a healer that focuses mainly on damage-to-healing is that it is unreliable and i'm not sure there's a way to make it balanced (with it ending either overpowered or underpowered). Even atonement generally heals a random person that's not at full health, so it is not a healing style you will choose when you have to heal a specific person or group of people.

To make the entire monk healing spec focus on dps-to-heal randomness would just bring it back to being an unreliable but powerful healer that can't be balanced. It would make more sense, to me at least, to make it concentrate a bit more on being the melee version of atonement while at the same time not allowing it to be mana neutral or even benefit from doing so. A healer's resource is the finite length of it's mana bar and managing the generation and regeneration thereof. Even Atonement isn't mana neutral... at least not at the spirit levels we (or I, I suppose, I'm not sure of the numbers past my point of spirit) are currently at...

What I'm saying, in response to you, Kolas, is that I agree that mistweavers shouldn't be *punished* or what feels like getting punished for fistweaving, but in no way should they be able to fistweave indefinitely to high effect with no penalty. I'm sure you agree, though!

e: I guess what I'm trying to say is Fistweaving, like the discipline absorb mechanic (but not in the same way, obviously), is very difficult to balance because of its very nature and the way it has to operate.
Edited by Tsilyi on 3/18/2013 10:00 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
I don't understand this thread, but I'm not writing off anyone's opinions either. So if you can provide math or practical 'rotations' I'd be closer to seeing what you're seeing. In all of my tests, monks doing fistweaving will always do more damage than disc priests. Even accounting strange buffs (and weird variables like glancing blows) disc priests moving out of spirit and taking more pure throughput stats (which will oom them quicker than the monk rotations) can't push as much damage as monks.


You are right, Monks are capable of higher DPS (I believe around 8k more DPS on average given equal skill). When a Priest uses Atonement-style spells, however, they do around 20k more HPS, given an "equal benefit" situation. What I would personally like to see is more HPS from meleeing for Monks available when that maximum theoretical HPS isn't necessary, e.g. maybe a 10k or so HPS boost. So Priest would still do a reasonable amount of more healing but the gap would not be so large.

That is more beside the point though. For other things, it will not be a direct 5% coming back, because you need to gain and then use 4 Chi to even get one stack of Tea, so it's gonna be less (plus we tend to save til we have two stacks, but sometimes get an extra from crit, so I'm gonna ballpark 8% spent and 4% gained back). That still isn't bad, but considering how easy it is to "lose" a stack from not using MM correctly in a rotation (lag input, fight mechanics, or just plain messing up), losing 8% mana simply by pressing a single button wrong is a pretty big deal. Also, MW have to "commit" to that by getting into range + staying there meleeing for at least 20~ secs (or Zeal won't be worth the cost), proccing TP, setting up Zeal, and then making sure statue is in range + the fight window is optimal for it. Plus it makes Uplift (by far our "best" spell) more of a pain to use.

There is little to no synergy with our ranged kit. MM is useless for it. It doesn't add anything to ranged CDs or abilities should we have at abruptly switch or something, and the same goes for our ranged kit, nothing adds to it should we suddenly decide to want to melee. All that leads to "Fistweaving" being all but ignored if you aren't doing dailies or 5 mans or something, the benefits just aren't there for a raid outside gimmick fights. I want the benefits to be there, not only because I like it but because the ranged MW kit is still lacking. Despite what Blizzard has said recently regarding MW ranged healing, they clearly didn't flesh the ranged kit out enough. Blizzard really just replaced JabxJab Uplift with Soothing channel + Uplift. How is that more intuitive or more fun or whatever? It's avoiding the issue, not solving it.
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A priest's Smite, for comparison's sake, will drain 2.5%-4.25% mana every 2 seconds depending on evangelism stacks and spell haste (0 to 5 stacks, 0% to 16.6% haste). So I don't understand the efficiency points being made.


Are you taking into account the regeneration that we receive through proper use of Power Word: Solace and Shadowfiend or Mindbender while using Atonement healing?
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There is little to no synergy with our ranged kit. MM is useless for it. It doesn't add anything to ranged CDs or abilities should we have at abruptly switch or something, and the same goes for our ranged kit, nothing adds to it should we suddenly decide to want to melee. All that leads to "Fistweaving" being all but ignored if you aren't doing dailies or 5 mans or something, the benefits just aren't there for a raid outside gimmick fights. I want the benefits to be there, not only because I like it but because the ranged MW kit is still lacking. Despite what Blizzard has said recently regarding MW ranged healing, they clearly didn't flesh the ranged kit out enough. Blizzard really just replaced JabxJab Uplift with Soothing channel + Uplift. How is that more intuitive or more fun or whatever? It's avoiding the issue, not solving it.


I agree with this assessment completely, one of the largest things I enjoy about Atonement is how well it works with my 'normal' healing kit. When I have Evangelism up I get a nice buff to my 'DPS to heal' spells, but can transition that buff to a ranged supportive healing buff 'Archangel' when the need calls for it. Mistweavers are lacking the ability to transition between the styles seamlessly which causes a slight lag if the need arises to switch from Fistweaving to Mistweaving quickly, and this can easily lead to a tank death or several dps getting killed.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
03/18/2013 11:57 AMPosted by Safyr
A priest's Smite, for comparison's sake, will drain 2.5%-4.25% mana every 2 seconds depending on evangelism stacks and spell haste (0 to 5 stacks, 0% to 16.6% haste). So I don't understand the efficiency points being made.


Are you taking into account the regeneration that we receive through proper use of Power Word: Solace and Shadowfiend or Mindbender while using Atonement healing?

not to mention priests atonement healing mostly comes from offensive penance
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/18/2013 12:56 PMPosted by Imgandiloljk


Are you taking into account the regeneration that we receive through proper use of Power Word: Solace and Shadowfiend or Mindbender while using Atonement healing?

not to mention priests atonement healing mostly comes from offensive penance


If you're doing pure Atonement spam, you're going to be smiting when Penance and Holy Fire/Solace are on CD.
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95 Human Priest
16945
Are you taking into account the regeneration that we receive through proper use of Power Word: Solace and Shadowfiend or Mindbender while using Atonement healing?

add 0.15% to 0.2% additional mana per two seconds if you took solace. If atonement spam for dps purpose is being taken you actually want mindbender as it's more dps.

I'm dismissing the "I accidentally hit Jab twice and now I'm out of mana" arguments not because I don't feel for you playing with 1 second globals and lag, but because all melee classes do damage this way so it's unlikely to change.

And if you like doing damage from a ranged, you kind of should be playing a priest. It just seems like the points being made here are: the rotation is too unforgiving if I misclick; priests can weave between healing and dps easier because they're at range and archangel is a 'great' boost to their hps. But evangelism isn't always at 5 stacks, and archangel isn't as big of a boost as you think it is. What that means is atonements aren't always super mana efficient, and the sheer numbers priests can push are mostly being taken at a full 5 stacks evangelism or a fully consumed archangel. I could also see the argument being made that absorbs from crits are doing "more" healing, but archangel/atonement isn't a walk in the park.

I asked about the spells you were pressing because I wanted to see if a non-used muscle memory proc was in there, or if maybe you were still jabbing twice. And I asked about secondary stats to see if there was going to be a huge dps variance between what I've tested.

I kind of look at the two dps styles with a pros and cons style list:
monk
pro con
can aoe with eminence more rigid dps rotation
superior mobility only direct healing
not reliant on spirit no assumed payoff for dpsing
no ramp up time must be in melee (debatable)

priest
pro con
can dps at range only single target dps
can payoff dpsing with archangel slow ramp up time
more forgiving for misclicks entirely dependent on spirit
healing can be more effective with absorbs bad mobility


I also just crunched some healing numbers and a monk doing fistweaving and using renewing mists is actually pushing more hps than a priest after accounting for the ticks from renewing mists and mastery procs (that go unused). This might not be showing up in the logs of encounters because of the small amounts of eminence heals and the potential for hots to go into mostly overhealing, plus disc absorbs from da would get used first. But absorbs aren't the winning buttons for all encounters. When actual healing is required and dps from healers needs to step up, a monk to me is the better choice. Again, just looking for clarity in the OP as to what specifically the monks are doing that's so much more punishing.
Edited by Twistedmind on 3/18/2013 3:43 PM PDT
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