The F is wrong with my hps?

90 Blood Elf Mage
16075
03/18/2013 07:31 PMPosted by Imgandiloljk
doesn't matter if you heal for 93487593847259839732845 if you can only do it once. That's the essence of stacking spirit and crit.


Ok, listen. You are wrong. I was trying to be nice, but you are effing wrong. You are fighting against what is now years of evidence that mastery is very good for shaman.

You said two things: (1) crit is better than int; and (2) you didn't even mention mastery in a discussion of secondary stats for a shaman.

Both of those things are, well, f**king nuts. I'm going to ignore your exceedingly odd statement about crit being better than int (hopefully that was a mistake), and focus on your other point.

i have yet to hear ONE compelling argument why mastery would trump crit on at least ONE fight


You see, healing isn't a math test, especially when it comes to shaman mastery. You don't plug in numbers and say "zomg, X amount of crit under Y circumstances will give me Z more HPS/HPM than an equivalent amount of mastery". I mean, that is interesting information to be sure, but it is flat dumb to ever contend that crit is *always* better.

The simple reason is that when you need it most. I.e., when the members of your raid, whether it's a tank or anyone else, are in bad shape and need heals the most, a shaman stacking more mastery is more likely to save lives than a person obsessed with a theoretical HPS increase to be gained over the course of a fight by stacking other secondary stats.

If you'd like to see how this works out mathematically, it was actually calculated back in 4.1 by Vixin, who felt forced to do this by the crazy people who thought shaman mastery was terrible when cataclysm came out. The bottom line is that there is a relatively complex relationship between the value of Mastery and Crit, but as a rule of thumb, for single target healing, Mastery is better than crit when a raid member's health is less than 50%. For multi-target healing, mastery is better than crit at around 70% hp.

http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=2258

Honestly, it is a valid choice to stack mastery, to say the least. I know a lot of people couch it in terms of "it works wonderfully for heroics", but that is essentially saying the same thing as "the raid is at low health a lot." When any raid group is learning fights, whether they be heroics or normals, the group ends up with some mean damage. When that happens, mastery shines, at least in terms of saving lives. Which is what healers are supposed to do.
Edited by Taymage on 3/19/2013 3:37 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17865
03/18/2013 05:27 AMPosted by Sadiemay
I been messing with higher haste (3764) even though it is still inconsistant.


I am trying out the same cap (gives extra tick on both healing totems). Seemed to improve my healing on council but it's too early to draw a conclusion yet.
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90 Goblin Shaman
8425
my understanding was that it is fairly undisputed that mastery is our worst stat. the ONLY time i have stacked mastery on my shaman was when we had to deal with a tank that would go from 100% to 20% in two hits constantly, at which point mastery would necessary to keep him up, but we booted him for that reason and mastery is back to being worse than crit and haste


Mastery has actually been our best secondary stat since- well- tier 11.

As someone else mentioned, it depends on your healer composition. Mastery is a good stat when you can actually get some heals in. Shaman mastery is still the best in the game- as long as you don't have more than 1 or 2 absorb specs in your raid.

And then, it's awesome for when there is burst damage- discs actual heals (not to be confused with absorbs) are actually not that great.

What is messing with shaman and a lot of reactive healers numbers are absorbs. In my opinion, absorbs shouldn't really be shown as healing done (when I think of the word absorb, I think of a sponge). If I'm thinking correctly, disc has one absorb that actually does any healing- glyphed PW:S.

But you know what?

Disc has a big weakness when it comes to their actual healing spells (remember I'm talking without absorbs here)- even with the buff.

In my mind, every healing spec has a weakness in one form or another.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note:
People need to realize: you heal as a team. Learn to work with your other healers.

It's not a race to see who can get the highest HPS. HPS doesn't equal dps.
Edited by Jujubiju on 3/19/2013 7:40 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Shaman
9005
Mastery has actually been our best secondary stat since- well- tier 11.

As someone else mentioned, it depends on your healer composition. Mastery is a good stat when you can actually get some heals in. Shaman mastery is still the best in the game- as long as you don't have more than 1 or 2 absorb specs in your raid.

And then, it's awesome for when there is burst damage- discs actual heals (not to be confused with absorbs) are actually not that great.

What is messing with shaman and a lot of reactive healers numbers are absorbs. In my opinion, absorbs shouldn't really be shown as healing done (when I think of the word absorb, I think of a sponge). If I'm thinking correctly, disc has one absorb that actually does any healing- glyphed PW:S.

But you know what?

Disc has a big weakness when it comes to their actual healing spells (remember I'm talking with absorbs here)- even with the buff.

In my mind, every healing spec has a weakness in one form or another.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note:
People need to realize: you heal as a team. Learn to work with your other healers.

It's not a race to see who can get the highest HPS. HPS doesn't equal dps. [/quote]

This ^

If you're stacking mastery and you're watching the meters with absorb healers in your raid, you're going to be disappointed. When there's not a lot of damage going on the absorbs basically snipe all the heals from a shaman. Not to mention the amount of time the raid is spent spread out now in this xp. When it gets ugly though the mastery shines like none other. Proper use of cooldowns is key. If you want to make yourself feel better, don't include absorbs in your recount lol. You'll see a drastic difference in healing done then.
Edited by Cystik on 3/19/2013 8:32 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
You said two things: (1) crit is better than int

quote when i said that

(2) you didn't even mention mastery in a discussion of secondary stats for a shaman.

because its terribad... spirit > int > crit... NOWHERE do you have room to reforge into mastery or haste with that stat priority

03/19/2013 02:42 AMPosted by Taymage
Honestly, it is a valid choice to stack mastery,

when i see consistently top ranking shamans stack mastery ill reconsider my position
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90 Blood Elf Mage
16075
quote when i said that


Ok.

you should be gemming/reforge spirit > crit > int


Also the idea that Mastery for shaman is "terribad" is so laughable I don't even know what to say.
Edited by Taymage on 3/19/2013 3:35 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
03/19/2013 03:33 PMPosted by Taymage
quote when i said that


Ok.

you should be gemming/reforge spirit > crit > int


Also the idea that Mastery for shaman is "terribad" is so laughable I don't even know what to say.

well in all fairness, would have been proper to say spirit > crit = int since the only time you get for crit or int is to satisfy a yellow or red socket.

and again, find me ONE high ranking resto shaman (pve) that is going mastery over crit... you probably can't
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
Shockah - thorium brother hood
- spirit > crit = int

Glaciationz - Cho'gall
- spirit > crit > int

Nakoshaman - Aman'thul
- spirit > crit = int

Saiid - kargath
- spirit > crit = int

Shockie - gundrak
- unknown, he's in his elem set

Shockurface - bleeding hollow
- unkown, in his pvp set where mastery is useful

Mavalynn - Argent Dawn
- Spirit = crit > int

Awsumpossum - gilneas
- no idea, he gems mastery then reforges more into crit, ill give you this one and say he is mastery > crit

5/6 of the front page shamans on megaera are rocking spirit > crit = int

edit: only looking at US shamans
Edited by Imgandiloljk on 3/19/2013 3:53 PM PDT
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85 Gnome Priest
6840

and again, find me ONE high ranking resto shaman (pve) that is going mastery over crit... you probably can't


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/andorhal/Stormingire/advanced

9062 Mastery, 427 crit
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360

and again, find me ONE high ranking resto shaman (pve) that is going mastery over crit... you probably can't


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/andorhal/Stormingire/advanced

9062 Mastery, 427 crit

and he didn't rank
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Do you really believe the top-ranked Shamans don't just follow the crowd like everyone else?
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90 Goblin Shaman
8425


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/andorhal/Stormingire/advanced

9062 Mastery, 427 crit

and he didn't rank


I have an idea: how about instead of this "hero worship" you are doing, you learn to think for yourself.

At this point with resto, it depends entirely on your group make up. Common sense. Get some.
Edited by Jujubiju on 3/19/2013 4:49 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360


and he didn't rank


I have an idea: how about instead of this "hero worship" you are doing, you learn to think for yourself.

Unless you yourself are "ranking", you have no room to talk.

i have ranked when i still played my shaman, and i still rank on my monk

Do you really believe the top-ranked Shamans don't just follow the crowd like everyone else?

the top ranked shamans rank top because what they are doing is the most effective... you dont see an incredibly skilled resto shaman stacking haste and being #1

i also noticed the moment i brought forth proof of what works the best the argument changed to "think for yourself"
Edited by Imgandiloljk on 3/19/2013 4:50 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
There's a lot of things that contribute to your acquisition of a top ranking parse.

Putting 2000 more stat points into either Crit Rating or Mastery Rating usually isn't one of them.
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90 Goblin Shaman
8425
i also noticed the moment i brought forth proof of what works the best the argument changed to "think for yourself"


At this point with resto, it depends entirely on your group make up. Common sense. Get some


Ever stop to think there's a reason those "heroes" of yours might be using a different secondary? Doubtful. You probably didn't bother to see what the other healers were.

Oh and while we are talking about "rankings", do you even understand what HPS is? Hint: you don't read it like it's dps. Not even a comparison.

Crit is entirely too RNG based to be a dependable stat. With intel you get spell power AND more crit. With mastery, you get a bump for all your healing spells depending on the HP of the person/people that you are healing.
Edited by Jujubiju on 3/19/2013 4:58 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
16075
and again, find me ONE high ranking resto shaman (pve) that is going mastery over crit... you probably can't


Ok, here are a couple:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/Garona/Weevz/advanced
http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/thrall/Dariosus/simple

Here's a person who ranked, and gems for crit, but reforges for mastery: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/the-venture-co/Foue/simple

And just for s**ts and giggles, here is the shaman who ranked 8th on Jin'rohk. She's reforged out of crit and is gemming for haste. And yes, she is in her resto gear, she's wearing the resto four piece: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/emeriss/Shocky/simple

Here's the 9th ranked person. She appears to gem for everything on the planet, including haste, mastery, crit, and pure intellect. She also has reforged out of crit and into haste on one piece, but into crit on another piece: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/burning-legion/K%C3%B6curek/simple

I assume you will now be recommending that shaman copy her gemming and reforging?

The amusing thing about all of this is how dumb it is to look at top rankings. Quite frequently healers rank because of strangeness about a fight, such as two or one-healing, or the raid is in general taking too much damage deliberately.

But have fun storming the castle.
Edited by Taymage on 3/19/2013 5:19 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
03/19/2013 04:52 PMPosted by Jujubiju
i also noticed the moment i brought forth proof of what works the best the argument changed to "think for yourself"


At this point with resto, it depends entirely on your group make up. Common sense. Get some


Ever stop to think there's a reason those "heroes" of yours might be using a different secondary? Doubtful. You probably didn't bother to see what the other healers were.

Oh and while we are talking about "rankings", do you even understand what HPS is? Hint: you don't read it like it's dps. Not even a comparison.

Crit is entirely too RNG based to be a dependable stat. With intel you get spell power AND more crit. With mastery, you get a bump for all your healing spells depending on the HP of the person/people that you are healing.

i had NO IDEA!

anyways, Shockah healed with a holy paladin
glaciationz healed with a disc priest
Nako healed with a disc
Saiid healed with a disc
Shockie healed with a holy pal and disc
Shockurface so far has been only person not to heal with a disc or holy pal, and he also still stacks spirit > crit
Mavalynn healed with a disc and holy pal
Awsum healed with a monk and resto druid, and we have no idea what his stat priority is since his gems are kinda random but mostly mastery while his reforges are random with more crit

So at least on the front page, of the shamans that did not heal with an absorb healing class, the higher ranking shaman was stacking spirit crit, while the lower ranked one randomly throws stats around, but is still weighted more towards mastery.

on page two oneptzlgw healed with a shaman and resto druid and has random stats, but reforges to mastery, still ranked below the shamans that stack crit spirit regardless of equal ilvl

its funny that the farther down the ranks i go the more mastery shamans pop up
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
Here's a person who ranked, and gems for crit, but reforges for mastery: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/the-venture-co/Foue/simple

ranked lower than the shamans stacking crit... that's odd

The amusing thing about all of this is how dumb it is to look at top rankings. Quite frequently healers rank because of strangeness about a fight, such as two or one-healing, or the raid is in general taking too much damage deliberately.

actually, a majority of the magaera fights are the standard 2 tanks 3 healers, the very highest ranking us shaman 2 healed megaera which would justify his high healing, but most of the others are 3 healing it... the best part is the majority of us shamans on the front page healed with disc priests which would make it hard for them to get any use of their mastery regardless of whether they stacked it or not

I assume you will now be recommending that shaman copy her gemming and reforging?

i recommend anyone that can't figure out stat priority logically themselves copy the top healers of their zone, i dont look at EU players because lets be honest, there is something special going on in europe if they are concsistently !@#$ting on the US players

weeves also did not rank on magaera, im not looking at other fights because magaera is currently the better fight to judge healing power, since it is heavy raid damage to everyone with relatively diverse intervals and moderate amounts of movement

long story short, of the person that ranked on magaera, they are not stacking spirit crit and are ranking worse than those that are stacking spirit crit.... at what point is that a compelling counterargument?

also kocurek or w/e got beat by mavalynn who is stacking spirit crit... so far you are supporting my argument
Edited by Imgandiloljk on 3/19/2013 5:47 PM PDT
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85 Gnome Priest
6840


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/andorhal/Stormingire/advanced

9062 Mastery, 427 crit

and he didn't rank


And he's also in a top 50 US guild, seems they're pretty happy with him, and he's been there forever. Ranking to pad meters isn't how people should raid.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7640
You also see shamans in top guilds sporting 18k-20k spirit... for one reason only. That doesn't mean everyone should ignore socket bonuses and gem pure spirit. Haste in this expansion, is actually more helpful than it has been do to the amount of snipe healing we have to do.
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