Holy forced to Ranged

100 Blood Elf Paladin
18235
I've been a Healer for what seems like ages now, raiding normal and heroic through Cata and Mists so far. I've always tried to stand in melee range as much as possible for the mana boost that sometimes seems to make the difference between a wipe and a boss kill. Such a core mechanic as our Seal of Insight (what other seal would a Holy Paladin take?) practically requires it.

So why then are there so many fights that count Holy Paladins as a ranged? (ie Windlord in HoF)

I have not personally verified it, but I have heard Mistweavers do not count as ranged, so it cannot be as simple as "All healers are ranged"; are HPallies not melee-centric as well?

Just a (very frustrating) irritation that I keep running into on raid fights, but I would like to hear another person's thoughts, and possibly how other raiding HPallies deal with the issue.
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90 Human Paladin
8070
Your playstyle is your playstyle. If you are keeping others alive and healing just fine, then you are fine playing Holy in melee.
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
That's not the problem. She *can* and wants to heal in melee, but raid mechanics prevent her from doing so. On the Bladelord boss in HoF, second boss, he has a wind strike that will hit "ranged," putting a very damaging debuff on them and anyone nearby. Were she to stand in melee with the rest, it could hit her, the tanks, and all melee gathered up. Mistwalkers get to avoid it, as they don't count as ranged (Really? That's cool to know!).

But paladins, which have the ability to melee for mana (and should, if you're good enough to handle it without losing focus), are told we can't. Meleeing for mana is our Power Word Solace, Telluric Currents, or Wrath of Cenarius (Need to check if that thing still exists, haven't looked at Druids since Cata). And it's a kind of discrepancy. Not a huge one, but still something that is off.

As to your question OP, I stay in ranged full-time. Earlier in the expansion I was given the excuse that too many HoT's rolling from eternal flame prevented me from doing so efficiently, but the truth is I simply prefer the hang-bank approach. Not being clustered up in melee gives me a brighter view of the battlefield, and concentrating on melee for mana optimization takes away some of my reaction speed. I tend to precast and cast continually anyways, so there's not much reward for the sacrifice. <thinks about the bosses> There are many fights anyways where dps and tanks are spread out, so I have to position myself in a central spot that prohibits meleeing. I do melee when I can get away with it (Feng, Elegon, etc.), but it's few and far between.
Edited by Wards on 3/11/2013 2:27 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12255
I'm not a Holy Pally but I have to agree with Alyzka that it does seem to be a disparity in class design. I've always thought of Paladins as a melee class, or rather or a hybrid class that skews closer to the melee side of life than the ranged, though they've always had kind of a foot in both realms. Mistweaver monks were given a mechanic that Holy Pallies have had for a long time, and not only were blessed with a souped up version but also the luxury of being counted as melee by raid mechanics. Why not give the original melee healer the same treatment? He's not asking for Seal of Insight to be buffed, only the ability to utilize it to its fullest potential without being harassed by his raid (for inviting unwanted doom on the Melee) or the raid bosses. It fits with the flavor of the class and I can't see how it would unbalance healing classes as that would still place 3 of the healing classes in the purely ranged category and two in the "I can melee heal if I choose" category. Further yet, it wouldn't change the play style of Paladins like Wards who prefer ranged and already choose to play that way in most cases, only allow those like Alyzka to play as they prefer as well.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810
I've been a Healer for what seems like ages now, raiding normal and heroic through Cata and Mists so far. I've always tried to stand in melee range as much as possible for the mana boost that sometimes seems to make the difference between a wipe and a boss kill. Such a core mechanic as our Seal of Insight (what other seal would a Holy Paladin take?) practically requires it.


- There have always been mechanics that kept us from going in melee during certain encounters

- It would be overpowered to be considered a melee, and there are various instances where monks are considered ranged as well as some where they appear to be considered melee (not 100% certain on this, but I'm fairly confident this is the case)

- Letting a healer or ranged sit in melee would quickly become "overpowered". What's to keep guilds from only using paladins and monks if they adopted the "melee" designation

We just have to do what we've always done - make use of it when/where you can =)
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18235
We just have to do what we've always done - make use of it when/where you can =)


Yeah, I'm not /overly/ concerned, and it does make things interesting on some fights (Running out when you get Focused Lightening certainly keeps you on your toes!)... but the seeming disparity with expected mechanics is still irritating.

Glyph of Illumination certainly makes up for some of the melee loss, particularly with the T14 four piece, but I'm dreading the fight where my interrupt will be useful but I am required to be at a 10-yard range.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8085
Mistweavers have an entire rotation for melee healing like atonement healing !@# opposed to just sitting passively hitting, so it makes sense that they get tagged as melee in some fights. At this point the benefit of seal of insight kinda seems like a relic from original concept designs of paladins, I wouldnt be surpsrised if they removed the returns mana component eventually.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15055
I always just assumed all healing classes were counted as ranged. If that is untrue there does seem to be a disparity between classes. Asking to be not counted as ranged is a far milder request to fix the problem, then say bringing back the judgement component from Seal of Insight that let us get a little mana boost from range. That's something I /still/ whine about that that's been gone for like a year. Would seem to me if you are removing the ranged mana mechanic from Seal of Insight, and changing it to a melee hit for mana, we should be able to stand in melee with out being subject to range only abilities.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9980
I just have enough spirit for me not to need to use the melee effect of seal of insight, and I use divine plea on cd, and I usually always have enough mana for a fight. It seems the only reason they put the 10% haste on it for us, was so we would have a seal we could use. Maybe if they made it work like the price of progress, where our heals had a chance to restore mana, that would work.

But I do see where you're coming from. I just don't think pallies should be considered melee healers, when our melee just regens our mana.
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92 Blood Elf Paladin
15160
As soon as the content I'm on isn't progression, I'm fine with being in melee range. I feel like every swing that turns up mana is a beautiful thing.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810


Glyph of Illumination certainly makes up for some of the melee loss, particularly with the T14 four piece


Glyph of Illumination is a HUGE mp5 loss at raiding gear levels. You should NEVER be using this glyph unless you are in normal dungeon blues or leveling gear.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18235
Glyph of Illumination is a HUGE mp5 loss at raiding gear levels. You should NEVER be using this glyph unless you are in normal dungeon blues or leveling gear.


You are correct... I just did the math, and even with the 4 second Holy Shock, casting it on cooldown and getting a crit 100% of the time, the Glyph of Illumination gives 45000 mana per minute (a little more with the right metagem)

Even while I'm not gemmed for spirit, I get 48126 mana per minute passively in combat; with the Glyph, that drops to 38501 mana per minute in combat.

BUT with the 38501 and HS having a 37.43% crit, and lets say a conservative 50% uptime on HS average to cover periods of heavy casting or folks being topped off (once every 8 seconds), that gives a 38501+8422=46923 mana per minute. (100% crit and cast every 4 seconds for ideal would be 83501 mana per minute.)

Both without raid buffs, true, but 100% crit and 100% uptime on a spell is virtually impossible.

Thank you for pointing that out, although still moot to the point of the thread ^_^
Edited by Alyzka on 3/17/2013 8:18 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
11940

- Letting a healer or ranged sit in melee would quickly become "overpowered". What's to keep guilds from only using paladins and monks if they adopted the "melee" designation


Honestly, because you still have to have heals in the range as well. That being said, it's easier to have some in melee and some in range and would be preferable. Take for example the council fight in ToT, having a healer in melee range makes the Frostbite easier, and they don't get targeted by quicksand (Monks) - why is it okay for monks and not for paladins.

The point is, Paladins are a melee class .. just like they are a plate class .. if Monks are able to be counted as melee why not Paladins. This in no way means that they would HAVE to stay in melee (just like monks don't) but that if they ARE in melee then they're not being targeted by range spells!

I can't imagine ever having healers ONLY in melee at any time .. but where it seems they've balanced out healers (with their dispells for example) then I don't think that your 'OP' point is necessarily one that works.
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
This does make me wonder. What happens when fighting a boss, such as Blade Lord, who does Tempest Strikes and Wind Strikes only upon ranged targets, when there are no ranged in the party? That is, you have 2 tanks, 6 melee dps, and 2 Mistweavers. Random targets, maybe?

I can understand the reasoning. Every raid is going to need healers, and counting healers as ranged means Blizzard can write mechanics in certain ways, but the game already allows the concept of "no ranged" in the party (which wouldn't work on every fight, as some boss phases require ranged dps). Possibly just to keep compositions balanced. Running a 10 man with the above set is so rare you'd have to work to get it. Adding Paladins on top of Mistweavers as melee, or even melee possible, ups the percentage by a solid margin.
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90 Human Paladin
13130
This does make me wonder. What happens when fighting a boss, such as Blade Lord, who does Tempest Strikes and Wind Strikes only upon ranged targets, when there are no ranged in the party? That is, you have 2 tanks, 6 melee dps, and 2 Mistweavers. Random targets, maybe?

I can understand the reasoning. Every raid is going to need healers, and counting healers as ranged means Blizzard can write mechanics in certain ways, but the game already allows the concept of "no ranged" in the party (which wouldn't work on every fight, as some boss phases require ranged dps). Possibly just to keep compositions balanced. Running a 10 man with the above set is so rare you'd have to work to get it. Adding Paladins on top of Mistweavers as melee, or even melee possible, ups the percentage by a solid margin.


In the past a lot of these ranged only abilities only required a certain number of people outside of melee range. I'm fairly certain that Blade Lord is the same way (we had one healer sit in melee on a few kills unless that was just obscenely good luck) and that as long as there are enough people at ranged anyone standing in melee won't be targeted by ranged only attacks.
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90 Goblin Shaman
12405
this is very interesting!!! I really think they should change that to help with raids!!!
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100 Pandaren Monk
12795
In this regard, Mistweavers do count as melee for the purpose of boss mechanics, because "fistweaving" as it is called, was essential to their casting before recent changes. Showing that mana generates chi and heals small amounts, spending chi heals for larger amounts. I like that blizzard has made a 2 resource healing class. Similar to DK dps, runes to build runic power and deal smaller dps, and using runic power for the remainder. HOWEVER, classifying mistweavers as melee due to this is unfair to other healers. Seal of insight isn't.....mandatory for healing, neither is fistweaving. but when building chi is as simple as using an ability in melee or relying on RNG for soothing mist procs, I feel the reason they did this difference was to illustrate that requirement to not rely on RNG.
I have seen paladins heal without going into melee, but on the same token, they aren't playing their role to the best available option. I believe blizzard should look into this, either having mechanics treat paladins as melee while seal of insight is active, or removing the "healer is melee" mechanic from all classes entirely, it sets monks above others in regards to those mechanics, I.E. if you have misteaver healers for jin'rokh, you will never see them targeted with the orbs, as opposed to a paladin who can be targeted and explode instantly, Does not seem fair in my eyes.
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63 Human Paladin
5385
I just have enough spirit for me not to need to use the melee effect of seal of insight


Isn't that basically equivalent to "I outgear this encounter so I can do what I want"? It doesn't really change the fact that you would have *more* mana if you did melee. Or you could reallocate your secondary stats and have more throughput.

I do sort of wonder how Blizzard can make meleeing for mana useful without making it mandatory. Having more mana seems pretty important in general.

The fact that on some fights, mechanics make it too dangerous to stand in melee and get hit with "target a random ranged player" abilities would just change it to "meleeing for mana is forbidden on some fights, mandatory on others", it seems to me. Any time you can use it and don't you're giving up free mana.
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