How do healers expect to gear up?

90 Blood Elf Warlock
10110
Sure it drops loot. Just nothing you can use. It always drops items that aren't upgrades!

Nope. Gold.
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90 Human Paladin
10400
Until you get into heavy raid damage fights where your healers are pushing it to the max already, and every little bit helps, regardless of what DPS do or don't do.

There's Tank hurdles, DPS hurdles, and Healer hurdles in the game. Ignore one role at your peril.

No, farming gear is the point where you get what's required for the next tier. If you need more dps you drop a healer. If you need more healers and can still make a dps check you add a healer.

Realize that often times when you drop a healer you only drop overheal in most situations unless there is a mechanic that you simply can't get around with less healers. See Rag 25 progression if you don't believe me.
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03/14/2013 02:06 AMPosted by Mitimem
I've had gear stolen from me when it clearly listed a healing spell only proc, and a mage wanted it just because of the Intellect even though they couldn't even use the proc

If the loot system allows them to roll Need, then they have as much right to the gear as you, even if it's not optimal for their current spec or class.

If someone else wins the roll, they didn't steal. You lost the roll.

If you want to argue semantics, sure, by the technical allowances of the game they have as much "right" to the gear as me. But that wasn't my point. My point was that gear rules don't always stop people from being rude or making poor gear decisions, and I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that a mage rolling against a healer on a trinket with a proc they are literally incapable of using is a polite or smart gearing choice. I certainly wouldn't roll against a mage on gear with a damage-only proc even if it were a massive Int/gearscore upgrade. Even setting manners aside, what's the point? A lower gearscore trinket with a proc you can actually use is probably more beneficial than the useless proc with that little bit of extra Int.

I don't expect everyone in the game to be polite. But like Wards said, it does make everything a much more pleasant experience when people worry less about getting their gearscore as high as it can as fast as they can, and pay attention to what is really the best choice for both their class/spec and the group as a whole.

And as someone who played a mage for the majority of my WoW playtime, no, mages don't really benefit that much from Spirit gear. There are plenty of ways to effectively regen your mana without it.
Edited by Kahtek on 3/14/2013 2:00 PM PDT
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85 Undead Mage
13720
If you're prioritizing spirit gear to dps... i'll like to see those guilds down Megaera 10M normal.
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90 Human Paladin
10400
If you're prioritizing spirit gear to dps... i'll like to see those guilds down Megaera 10M normal.

Just the first instance I found, but I think they're way past 10M normal Megaera.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/illidan/Bushino/advanced
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
03/14/2013 01:59 PMPosted by Kahtek
If you want to argue semantics, sure, by the technical allowances of the game they have as much "right" to the gear as me. But that wasn't my point. My point was that gear rules don't always stop people from being rude or making poor gear decisions, and I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that a mage rolling against a healer on a trinket with a proc they are literally incapable of using is a polite or smart gearing choice.

It doesn't matter if the proc is not optimal. The Loot Roll works as Blizzard has designed it. If it has more Intellect than their current trinket there's no reason not to use it, especially when you're talking about pre-raid gear. It really doesn't matter if they Need just to vendor or disenchant. A player doesn't have to justify what they intend to do with a item they won through a fair roll.

You think a dps rolling need on a healing proc trinket is rude, but that's according to your standards. You can't apply your norms to the game. We all come from different cultures with different norms. In the game the norms are dictated by Blizzard through the ToS and allowable actions. If you want to impose your norms, then you have to form your own group and explain the loot rules to the party.

I say this as someone that has rolled Need on 5.4% of rolls while you've rolled Need 14.7% of the time. Did you know anyone can look up your Loot Roll Statistics?
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If you want to argue semantics, sure, by the technical allowances of the game they have as much "right" to the gear as me. But that wasn't my point. My point was that gear rules don't always stop people from being rude or making poor gear decisions, and I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that a mage rolling against a healer on a trinket with a proc they are literally incapable of using is a polite or smart gearing choice.

It doesn't matter if the proc is not optimal. The Loot Roll works as Blizzard has designed it. If it has more Intellect than their current trinket there's no reason not to use it, especially when you're talking about pre-raid gear. It really doesn't matter if they Need just to vendor or disenchant. A player doesn't have to justify what they intend to do with a item they won through a fair roll.

You think a dps rolling need on a healing proc trinket is rude, but that's according to your standards. You can't apply your norms to the game. We all come from different cultures with different norms. In the game the norms are dictated by Blizzard through the ToS and allowable actions. If you want to impose your norms, then you have to form your own group and explain the loot rules to the party.

I say this as someone that has rolled Need on 5.4% of rolls while you've rolled Need 14.7% of the time. Did you know anyone can look up your Loot Roll Statistics?

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish with this argment. I expressed an opinion that I thought a particular kind of behavior was rude. I never said everyone must universally feel the exact same way I do. We clearly have different opinions about what is rude and what is not, and that really seems to bother you. Which is ironic because you're the one telling me I need to accept that not everyone shares the same opinion.

Just because behavior is allowed by the TOS and game mechanic doesn't mean it can never be considered rude by anyone. There are plenty of things allowed by the ToS that I and other players would consider impolite and choose not to do to other players. I am sure there are things you have experienced in the game that you felt were impolite, but others felt were perfectly acceptable.

As for taking a trinket for the Int alone, we'd have to crunch numbers to be sure, but I am of the opinion that it's still not a smart gearing choice to replace a trinket with a lower gearscore and less Int but a usable proc than it is to take a higher Int trinket at the expense of having any proc. It makes more sense to me to just wait a little longer and get both a trinket with better Int, better gearscore, and a proc you can actually use.

And I'm not really sure what my need roll % has to do with anything? Are you trying to make some sort of point there?
Edited by Kahtek on 3/14/2013 6:23 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
0

It doesn't matter if the proc is not optimal. The Loot Roll works as Blizzard has designed it. If it has more Intellect than their current trinket there's no reason not to use it, especially when you're talking about pre-raid gear. It really doesn't matter if they Need just to vendor or disenchant. A player doesn't have to justify what they intend to do with a item they won through a fair roll.

You think a dps rolling need on a healing proc trinket is rude, but that's according to your standards. You can't apply your norms to the game. We all come from different cultures with different norms. In the game the norms are dictated by Blizzard through the ToS and allowable actions. If you want to impose your norms, then you have to form your own group and explain the loot rules to the party.

I say this as someone that has rolled Need on 5.4% of rolls while you've rolled Need 14.7% of the time. Did you know anyone can look up your Loot Roll Statistics?


Your statistics are very flawed. Kahtek has rolled on 311 items, whereas you've rolled on over six thousand. Your iLevel is 20 points greater than his. All those greed rolls of yours are because you've run dungeons without needing the gear (just the VP), whereas he's still gearing up.

And... do you know how long it would take for Blizzard to assign class yes/no options to every piece of gear in the game to prevent that kind of need problem? I'm a paladin. I can roll need on an Agi trinket with a agi proc. No. Blizzard expects us to police ourselves, and they're right to expect us to be more than capable of doing just that.

Different cultures doesn't make it alright, and not all opinions are equal. If someone were to smacktalk a player for being female, you can darn well bet I'm either kicking them or dropping group, even if it's "just how they were raised."

Edit: Which... would be against the ToS, so your point still stands, alas. <shrug> But being a pleasant person means understanding that other players are real people with real and valid expectations, and knowing how your actions can harm others. You *can* take the last slice of bread at a buffet, you *can* grab a double handful of candy out of a trick or treat basket, you *can* walk around with a permanent glare on your face for all to see, but being able to do something that isn't against the law doesn't mean that it's always okay.
Edited by Wards on 3/14/2013 7:15 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12810
03/12/2013 10:33 AMPosted by Eikocarol
Druids and priests cant use swords


Besides DPS are more important than you in a progression environment and will mostly get gear over you in a top end guild.


Actually this is correct. It benefits the healers as much as anyone to have the HP of the boss go down faster and make a shorter fight, which is less strain on mana/longevity.

As long as people aren't dying to unavoidable damage that the healers don't have the power to heal through, it's more beneficial to let the dps get higher gear first.

Shorter fights and tanks with more mitigation = happier and less stressed healers. And I say that as a healer with no dps spec to benefit.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
03/12/2013 10:33 AMPosted by Eikocarol
Druids and priests cant use swords


Besides DPS are more important than you in a progression environment and will mostly get gear over you in a top end guild.

never did normal or heroic garalon, never did maegera, never did heroic will, never did heroic vizier, never did heroic bladelord... you are SO credible
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
03/14/2013 06:16 PMPosted by Kahtek
We clearly have different opinions about what is rude and what is not, and that really seems to bother you. Which is ironic because you're the one telling me I need to accept that not everyone shares the same opinion.

It doesn't matter what I think is rude. I've mode no argument about whether an action is rude or not. What I'm telling you that if an action is allowable by the game and does not violate the ToS then you need to learn to accept it.

Loot Rolls in LFD are just like the old argument about someone picking a mining or herb node while another player is stuck in combat next to the node. Blizzard has already addressed the issue. The item is yours when it's in your bag. That may seem rude to some, but that's how the game is setup. The only time a loot roll can be contested is if the group agrees to loot rules. Then the recourse is to submit a ticket, not complain on the forums.
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03/14/2013 09:59 PMPosted by Mitimem
We clearly have different opinions about what is rude and what is not, and that really seems to bother you. Which is ironic because you're the one telling me I need to accept that not everyone shares the same opinion.

It doesn't matter what I think is rude. I've mode no argument about whether an action is rude or not. What I'm telling you that if an action is allowable by the game and does not violate the ToS then you need to learn to accept it.

Loot Rolls in LFD are just like the old argument about someone picking a mining or herb node while another player is stuck in combat next to the node. Blizzard has already addressed the issue. The item is yours when it's in your bag. That may seem rude to some, but that's how the game is setup. The only time a loot roll can be contested is if the group agrees to loot rules. Then the recourse is to submit a ticket, not complain on the forums.

I'm not saying Blizzard needs to punish players for being rude or anything like that or that everyone else needs to feel the same way. I'm just saying I personally think it's rude. Simple as that. Telling me I shouldn't feel that way because their behavior doesn't violate the ToS isn't going to change how I feel. And I have just as much right to express that opinion as anyone else does to express their own.

Blizzard's ToS don't prohibit players expressing contrary opinions on the forums, so aren't you kind of contradicting your own philosophy here by criticizing me for doing that?

I think we just need to agree to disagree here. I do accept that there are times when players are going to do things I think are rude and I don't let it ruin my enjoyment of the game even if it bothers me for a moment. In the same vein, you need to accept that sometimes players will express opinions on the forums that you disagree with and you won't always be able to change that opinion.

Really we've probably spent more time debating this topic than I ever spent feeling annoyed at the result of a loot roll. ;)
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11110
If you want specific gear from a specific place then you build your own group, specify loot rules and then take what you want.

Anything other than that, and you're just blowing smoke. You deserve whatever you get (Or don't get) because you've decided to subject yourself to it. Anything you want can be yours if you want to work for it. If you don't want to put the effort into making a group, specifying loot rules, then don't complain when the RNG buttons decide it's not your turn. It's irritating. It doesn't generate sympathy, only annoyance and a shoo'ing motion of the hand. You're poking a rabid dog and then complaining you got bit. Congratulations. You've learned getting bit sucks. Stop complaining and move on.

By the way, a symbiosis'd mage [I]can[/I] proc a healing trinket. (Healing touch!) Just in case anybody was wondering.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
That is BS.


I'm not even in a high end guild and our group does this. If it comes down to a dps versus and healer/tank, whoever gets the most benefit from the piece gets it, and typically that is a dps. However, most of group agrees on this strategy and typically passes the gear to the best person.

Dps -> Tank -> Healer
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If you want specific gear from a specific place then you build your own group, specify loot rules and then take what you want.

Anything other than that, and you're just blowing smoke. You deserve whatever you get (Or don't get) because you've decided to subject yourself to it. Anything you want can be yours if you want to work for it. If you don't want to put the effort into making a group, specifying loot rules, then don't complain when the RNG buttons decide it's not your turn. It's irritating. It doesn't generate sympathy, only annoyance and a shoo'ing motion of the hand. You're poking a rabid dog and then complaining you got bit. Congratulations. You've learned getting bit sucks. Stop complaining and move on.

By the way, a symbiosis'd mage [I]can[/I] proc a healing trinket. (Healing touch!) Just in case anybody was wondering.

You seem to have missed the original point. Did you read my original post? I made a comment in passing about a particular behavior I thought was rude, as a way of illustrating that Blizzard's loot rules don't prevent people from experiencing rude behavior or losing out on upgrades to less ideal recipients. That's all I was trying to say. I wasn't coming here to whine about how I lost a loot roll. I was using the lost loot roll as an example of why I don't think preventing any DPS from benefiting from spirit would solve the problem posited in this thread. Which was the original point of this thread.

But Mitimem is apparently really not okay with the fact that I called a particular behavior rude, and keeps wanting to argue about it for some reason.

I don't really think I'm the one who needs to learn to let go or stop complaining here. Other people have spent far more time arguing that I'm not allowed to have a particular opinion than I ever did in originally expressing that opinion. Not everyone is going to always agree with you guys, sometimes people are going to dislike behavior that you have no problem with, and are going to express that opinion. It's not the end of the world, let it go.
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92 Worgen Druid
11160
In my current guild, we've always just done it by /roll and members will voluntarily pass on an item if they think the other person could use the upgrade more.

I don't care for loot council systems. Suicide Kings and EPGP tend to be more fair, from my experiences.

LFRs and dungeons, it doesn't really matter as much. In Cata I did have to link my Balance of Power talent more than once to prove it was an upgrade, but I only roll on healer items generally if they are itemized beneficially for me.
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100 Night Elf Druid
18105
I am in 2 raid groups right now, one on my druid and one with a priest.

Druid one says "if you need it, need it". Now we're pretty fair with eachother. We'll pass stuff to eachother. For instance, the shadow priest can use a ring with spirit and haste - but he'll let the healers have it first. It's nice not raiding with greedy people, and I myself pass stuff to other healers if it's a bigger upgrade for them or if they're behind on loot.

My priest guild does the suicide list thing - this works too. Get loot, fall to the bottom of the list. People at the top get dibs. Now my priest is currently the only cloth wearer who can use spirit as the other clothies are mage, warlock. So not too much of an issue there either. But again - if someone wants a piece of loot really bad I have no problem passing it. I'll get loot eventually.

It's nice finding drama free guilds where people don't argue over loot, this is important to me as a raider.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
03/15/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Kahtek
But Mitimem is apparently really not okay with the fact that I called a particular behavior rude, and keeps wanting to argue about it for some reason.

My point is that it doesn't matter what you or I think is rude. All that matters are the rules put forth by Blizzard. You can "feel" and "think" all you like about the issue, but it doesn't matter. Blizzard has addressed the topic. They have the LFD loot rules that way for a reason and to cut down on whining in LFR they made those rolls individual and spec based.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10855
03/15/2013 04:46 PMPosted by Mitimem
But Mitimem is apparently really not okay with the fact that I called a particular behavior rude, and keeps wanting to argue about it for some reason.

My point is that it doesn't matter what you or I think is rude. All that matters are the rules put forth by Blizzard. You can "feel" and "think" all you like about the issue, but it doesn't matter. Blizzard has addressed the topic. They have the LFD loot rules that way for a reason and to cut down on whining in LFR they made those rolls individual and spec based.


Soo what your saying is that his opinion is invaild because of the rules set down by Blizzard?
I see... and how does that make your opinions equally as vaild..
Yes! we get the fact that Blizzard pretty much says: "Too bad how sad, Deal with it" and we understand that. However, that doesn't mean you can go about telling people that it "Doesn't matter what you or they think is rude because of the rules"

Kahtek has every right to voice their opinion on what they believe is rude behaviour, if you disagree, that's cool too. but would you stop repeating the same thing over and over again as if it somehow makes your opinion any more valid than theirs?

k thanks

Moving on.. as someone who has raided before, I can understand the reasoning behind gearing up DPS / Tanks first.. yet it does feel like a bit of a let down when:

1) you go for weeks without getting any gear and so it feels like everyone's getting stronger than you..
2) your group drops you for another DPS because it makes farm content faster

And trust me.. i've had both happen to me...
It doesn't feel nice when you've busted yourself every week to heal the group only to be thrown to the wayside, having gotten no new gear at all.

and i'm fully aware that guilds can do this if they want because Blizzard allows them too and blah blah blah. Just before anyone decides to go down that road..
The point is.. Everyone is different and see things differently
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