When did Holy Paladins become Disc Priests?

90 Gnome Priest
13180
Not complaining since the more absorbs the better in my opinion, but it just seems really odd that Holy Paladins are doing as much or even more absorbs with Illuminated Healing than we as disc priests ever did with Divine Aegis. Considering that disc priests have always been the preventative healing spec and holy paladins the "bomb them with heals" throughput healers, I am just kind of wondering if anyone else finds this a bit wonky.

All through Cata Holy Paladins favored haste over mastery and with this expansion, they have turned into disc priests that wear plate with their mastery stacking. I didn't think it was a good thing when Divine Aegis made up the majority of our healing, and I find it just as off when I go through logs and see Illuminated Healing standing at 50% or more of a holy paladins healing.

Guaranteed DA off of PoH was nerfed but Illuminated Healing stays as is? This is really one of those times when I am wonder what the Blizzard devs do when they toss ideas around the table.
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90 Tauren Druid
8435
Was no different in 5.0/5.1

You're likely just seeing his numbers shoot up even higher due to your nerfs.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
IH is not 50% of any paladin's healing unless you have way too many overgeared healers. (LFR, maybe.)

And IH is largely a byproduct of paladin healing, not an end in itself. The only thing you might do to maximize IH is roll as many 1-HP Eternal Flames as you can. Which is interesting, but it hardly takes up the majority of your time and energy, and those EFs do some substantial healing in their own right.

Honestly, playing a paladin is nothing whatsoever like playing a disc priest, and causes none of the same balance issues.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13760
Illuminated Healing has been like this all through MoP. (And even as early as Dragon Soul when at high gear levels mastery became equal to haste from gearing, IH was a significant amount of my healing done in stacked AOE situations, although not my top heal by far. Holy Radiance spam, you broke my F3 key forever.)

Usually mastery makes up about 30% of my healing. (I have seen it be 50% but only in LFR and heroics: where I don't need to do that much healing so I just stack 1 HP EFs on people to keep myself busy.)

I don't expect Holy Paladin mastery to be completely reworked the way Disc Priest mastery was, but I do expect an eventual nerf to how much bubble we get per point of mastery.
Edited by Honorata on 3/13/2013 2:36 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
13880
People only see the Illuminated Healing topping a Holy Paladin's throughput and don't see the driving mechanism behind it, which is Eternal Flame blanketing.

Eternal Flame's synergy is too great with Illuminated Healing, considering it allows for Illuminated Healing absorptions to last triple their normal duration on a target and to continuously stack higher and higher as its duration progresses. Combined with the fast and effortless Holy Power generation by our T14 four set bonus and it comes to no surprise why Holy Paladins are topping as of now.

I'd personally like to see a nerf to Eternal Flame in some way, both to indirectly dampen the effectiveness of our mastery and to make T45 talents more diverse for Holy Paladins. One suggestion is to actually increase Eternal Flame periodic healing but also to cut its duration in half to 15 seconds; another suggestion is to make Eternal Flame (in addition to Word of Glory and Light of Dawn) require 3 Holy Power to use instead of allowing the Holy Paladin to blanket a bunch of smaller 1 Holy Power Eternal Flames on the raid group.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
3940
I like the increase in periodic healing suggestion and nerf the duration. I feel like that is the best option out of the two. Requiring it to be a 3 HP cast isn't fair because having the option to use the 1HP cast could potentially save lives in a raid/dungeon and is a good option to have as a life saver so I don't think blizzard would use that...

but I can be wrong. I'm not saying I wouldn't be able to survive if they do, I'm just saying why do it if it could potentially help prevent a wipe
Edited by Ionne on 3/13/2013 8:27 AM PDT
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97 Undead Priest
15960
Seems like the absorption class is no longer the absorption healer, but instead the burst absorption healer.

Honestly I really dislike Disc now. Not because I'm not overpowered (I'm still quite powerful in the right situations), but because I'm incredibly weak in many situations. Meanwhile I get to watch as Holy Paladin's get to be an absorption healer (THEY HAVE OUR MASTERY) and good in literally every raid role (utility, spread and clumped healing and tank healing as well as single target healing), while I'm only good for burst damage and damage modifier fights.

So if PoH only needed it's MoP buffs reverted to be balenced but instead got it's class completely reworked mid expansion, what do we think will happen to Holy Paladin's? Will they actually fix EF blanketing? Or will they do something crazy like they did with Disc?
Edited by Poena on 3/13/2013 9:02 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I think that people need to stop being jealous brats about someone else's Mastery.

Are Paladins strong? Yes. They have been strong this entire expansion, and the previous one, and the one before that.

This is nothing new, and they aren't "OP" just because you aren't topping the meters anymore.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
Not complaining since the more absorbs the better in my opinion, but it just seems really odd that Holy Paladins are doing as much or even more absorbs with Illuminated Healing than we as disc priests ever did with Divine Aegis. Considering that disc priests have always been the preventative healing spec and holy paladins the "bomb them with heals" throughput healers, I am just kind of wondering if anyone else finds this a bit wonky.

All through Cata Holy Paladins favored haste over mastery and with this expansion, they have turned into disc priests that wear plate with their mastery stacking. I didn't think it was a good thing when Divine Aegis made up the majority of our healing, and I find it just as off when I go through logs and see Illuminated Healing standing at 50% or more of a holy paladins healing.

Guaranteed DA off of PoH was nerfed but Illuminated Healing stays as is? This is really one of those times when I am wonder what the Blizzard devs do when they toss ideas around the table.


The favoring of haste over mastery comes from mana pool size. If you have "unlimited" mana, go haste. Faster is better. With 5.0, and the 300k mana cap, we have to be significantly more conservative with our mana, and that leads to a more proactive (vice reactive) playstyle.

As for 50% of our healing coming from IH... that sounds like a stretch. I can see upper 30s and maybe even hitting 40%, but mathematically I don't think we could gear to hit 50% IH currently. Since IH is an addition to "most" of our heals, 50% mastery (which gives us IH), would result in 33% IH (using easy math).

The highest I've ever seen is 35% (that I remember), and I self buff to 42% mastery.

That said, I can't hit everyone, and the more people I do hit, the more it is spread out. It self limits itself very very well, especially with a 15 second timer before fade (or refresh, which makes the number appear larger than they really are).
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260
We don't have your mastery. It's also been our mastery since the changes went live before MoP dropped. You're just seeing more of it now that disc was nerfed. Do I think they need to tinker still with disc, yah, you betcha. My heal partner is disc and it sucks to not have that awesome go-to raid protection like we had before. But the weakness was always there. I noticed it before the nerf. Disc could do amazing, crazy hps with a player that knew when to use his or her spells but they struggled if their CDs weren't up and the damage got ugly. The bad thing is that those huge numbers led to a nerf that didn't address the weaker areas that are now being more exposed.

Don't pick on us paladins! We're fine.
Edited by Rainstorms on 3/13/2013 9:43 AM PDT
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97 Undead Priest
15960
I think that people need to stop being jealous brats about someone else's Mastery.


I think people need to learn to stop being stuck up snobs and understand that other peoples opinions can be valid.

Are Paladins strong? Yes. They have been strong this entire expansion, and the previous one, and the one before that.

This is nothing new, and they aren't "OP" just because you aren't topping the meters anymore.


Who said anything about topping meters?

I know my post was about the fact that the Holy Paladin's mastery is doing 30-50% of their healing... How 1 spell is doing ~60-70 of their healing in some cases (EF + Mastery). Sound familiar?

No one said they were OP, but it's clear to everyone that EF blanketing and their mastery is really really strong. What is Blizzards universal response when one spell accounts for a vast majority of a players healing? Usually it's to nerf it in some completely nonsensical way.
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100 Human Paladin
13880
I know my post was about the fact that the Holy Paladin's mastery is doing 30-50% of their healing... How 1 spell is doing ~60-70 of their healing in some cases (EF + Mastery). Sound familiar?


I usually put out between 30-35% of my healing as Illuminated Healing, and only when I'm healing extremely easy content does it ever jump up towards 50% of my total healing.

Although I would like to see our total healing smoothed out amongst all of our other healing abilities, I don't see much harm in a large portion of our healing abilities coming from a few select abilities. If the numbers are balanced regardless, what is the issue?

Now, if the numbers aren't balanced, which they currently are not, then yes, we may need to see some changes. All I ask for Blizzard is to make the right choice and nerf Eternal Flame instead of nerfing Illuminated Healing, preferably through one of the suggestions I made earlier.
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97 Undead Priest
15960
We don't have your mastery. It's also been our mastery since the changes went live before MoP dropped. You're just seeing more of it now that disc was nerfed. Do I think they need to tinker still with disc, yah, you betcha. My heal partner is disc and it sucks to not have that awesome go-to raid protection like we had before. But the weakness was always there. I noticed it before the nerf. Disc could do amazing, crazy hps with a player that knew when to use his or her spells but they struggled if their CDs weren't up and the damage got ugly. The bad thing is that those huge numbers led to a nerf that didn't address the weaker areas that are now being more exposed.

Don't pick on us paladins! We're fine.


Sorry, you misunderstand me. I don't want Paladin's to be nerfed. I wish all healers were brought to the same levels (all strong). To me what makes healing raids fun is feeling like you can make a difference when things go wrong and generally if you are underpowered you can't do that. Personally I haven't been happy with healing since WotLK because I've felt ineffective.

My concern and comments for the Holy Pally mastery are twofold.
1. It's a HUGE portion of their healing (as much if not more than a disc Priests in the last patch) and as such given that most of it is coming from one spell (EF), I'm concerned and curious to how Blizzard will nerf it (because IMO they will).

2. It is our Mastery. You can disagree with me if you like. Disc was the absorption healer (even before mastery's). But when mastery's were launched instead of small, reliable and balanced absorption's we got RNG and unbalanced absorption's. Personally I think the Holy Pally mastery should have instead been something else (Like huge mastery heals tied to their beacon target, or AoE smart heals from their beacon target) and Disc had the balanced and predictable mastery.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10215
03/13/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Poena
I think that people need to stop being jealous brats about someone else's Mastery.


I think people need to learn to stop being stuck up snobs and understand that other peoples opinions can be valid.

Are Paladins strong? Yes. They have been strong this entire expansion, and the previous one, and the one before that.

This is nothing new, and they aren't "OP" just because you aren't topping the meters anymore.


Who said anything about topping meters?

I know my post was about the fact that the Holy Paladin's mastery is doing 30-50% of their healing... How 1 spell is doing ~60-70 of their healing in some cases (EF + Mastery). Sound familiar?

No one said they were OP, but it's clear to everyone that EF blanketing and their mastery is really really strong. What is Blizzards universal response when one spell accounts for a vast majority of a players healing? Usually it's to nerf it in some completely nonsensical way.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-tzxfjj2n7v7lj2e6/details/0/?s=9473&e=10048

Yeah, 60-70% healing from EF/IH is pretty exagerated. Most healing intensive fight I have done in ToT so far, 36%~ from EF/IH. Highest I have seen it so far in ToT is 45% on council betwen the two spells.

At this point, though, I do think Holy will be nerfed. Not for the same reasons as Disc as we're not op (IMO), but because of all the crying about us.

I'm trying to not be biased. I have played holy since mid wrath and never felt as balanced in my healing toolkit as I am now. Honestly, truly balanced. I would like to see more focus brought on bringing healers in line than chopping off the top of the good ones.

Disc was an outlier. They flat out broke your class mid tier with the buffs, and seeing the abomination they made reverted/adjusted your spec (which hadn't really had an overhaul, ever) with the new tier.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/13/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Poena
I think people need to learn to stop being stuck up snobs and understand that other peoples opinions can be valid.


You know, it boggles my mind that I cannot recall a single time you have ever objected to Pally Mastery (which has, I might add, functioned in precisely the same fashion for the whole of this expansion) before Disc received a well-deserved nerf. Why didn't you object back in 5.0? Or 5.1? Their Mastery was doing the exact same ratio of healing then as it is now (probably more, since it was literally their only way to "snipe heals" from a Disc Priest in 5.0 and 5.1). Why is it only a problem now? Don't you think that's just a little bit odd?

Who said anything about topping meters?

I know my post was about the fact that the Holy Paladin's mastery is doing 30-50% of their healing... How 1 spell is doing ~60-70 of their healing in some cases (EF + Mastery). Sound familiar?


Except it isn't a "spell." It's a side-effect of their other healing. And you know this, yet you continue to try to put forth the ridiculous argument that one button they're pushing is providing 60-70% of their healing. Newsflash: They're casting a lot of spells, but their spells have a side effect that procs this. It isn't ONE spell. It's ALL their spells, and this is the result/residual effect.

No one said they were OP, but it's clear to everyone that EF blanketing and their mastery is really really strong. What is Blizzards universal response when one spell accounts for a vast majority of a players healing? Usually it's to nerf it in some completely nonsensical way.


If you look at an actual breakdown of a Paladin's healing, EF is normally their 2nd or 3rd heal. You seem to be willfully ignoring the fact that Illuminating Healing isn't a "spell." It's a side-effect of all of their OTHER spells. They are casting OTHER spells. But ALL of their spells have this side effect. It is how their Mastery works. It is how their Mastery has ALWAYS worked. Why is this an issue for you NOW as opposed to in 5.0 or 5.1?
Edited by Tiriel on 3/13/2013 11:36 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/13/2013 10:59 AMPosted by Poena
1. It's a HUGE portion of their healing (as much if not more than a disc Priests in the last patch) and as such given that most of it is coming from one spell (EF), I'm concerned and curious to how Blizzard will nerf it (because IMO they will).


I really don't understand your willful ignorance when it comes to Paladins.

2. It is our Mastery. You can disagree with me if you like. Disc was the absorption healer (even before mastery's). But when mastery's were launched instead of small, reliable and balanced absorption's we got RNG and unbalanced absorption's. Personally I think the Holy Pally mastery should have instead been something else (Like huge mastery heals tied to their beacon target, or AoE smart heals from their beacon target) and Disc had the balanced and predictable mastery.


It is not our Mastery. Maybe it SHOULD have been our Mastery, but it is NOT our Mastery. It is the Paladin Mastery. No amount of claiming it is the Disc Priest Mastery will change that.

But I think what really amuses me is that on one hand, you are claiming it is OP (in the first part of your statement, even) but on the other hand, you're characterizing it as "small, reliable and balanced absorption." I mean...seriously...
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16240
I agree with Tiriel, I think people are just complaining because Disc was fixed. The paladin mastery happens when we heal people. That means that for it to do great I actually have to be doing my job and I can't just faceroll on my keyboard. I don't see why people have to cry for nerf on it. We are just heavy mastery reliant healers.

Maybe other healers don't do as much healing through their mastery but they have a better synergy with other secondary stats while we do not.
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
Disc Priests and Holy Paladins are both OP, still.

Just because neither one of them is as OP as Disc was in 5.1 (or MW in 5.0) doesn't mean they aren't well out in front of all other healers. They're just special little snowflakes.

Paladins have a nerf coming thanks to PvP either way.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9425
It's no where near DA, but I suspect for how well it shows up for being "passive" (the nature of absorbs), its not really surprising that its getting some extra attention, especially now that the OP disc overlords have been tuned down properly and meters aren't so blindingly....white. I have no issue with it, but have a feeling it will be uhh, adjusted at some point with the EF usage.

Is it time to claim a new lamb to slaughter already? Saying our mastery has been stolen is a bit ridiculous.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
3940
Why do all the same threads keep happening? Can't we just leave well enough alone? Paladins are mastery reliant, Blizz will most likely tweak mastery in an upcoming patch; either that or eternal flame...maybe both.

This wasn't even a big deal before Disc priests got nerfed. Now every thread on the forums is Hpally mastery or Hpally OP.

Nothing changed since last patch but it wasn't an issue...we were just as strong. Le sigh.
I say we just move on and see what happens and let the arguing stop
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