Is Mr. Robot right? [Prot]

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9840
I was always under the impression that stacking Stamina was stupid, even as a tank. This is simply because bosses hit so hard that it would take more stamina than could possibly be stacked to have a significant chance at it actually making a difference.

...At least, that's what I always seemed to think.

Truth be told, I don't know. Usually, I'd use my good pals, math and theorycrafting, to arrive at a discrete answer, but this kind of problem involves too many variables for which bad assumptions completely invalidate everything.

Askmrrobot's stat weights for their Control/Mastery build are as follows:

Stamina = 1.5
Hit = 1.1 (until 7.5% cap)
Expertise = 1.09 (until 15% cap, no soft cap)
Mastery = 1.0
Armor = 0.99
Haste = 0.8
Strength = 0.6
Dodge = 0.5
Parry = 0.5


This makes stamina gems the best overall gem, assuming color is irrelevant. Stamina gems are worth 360 points, compared to hit being worth 352 (assuming it doesn't break cap) and everything else being worth even less.

Of course, I did other research before coming here. Icy-veins also claims that stamina is the top-weighted stat, but also notes "(until you have enough, see below)", while "below" failed to adequately clarify what "enough" is beyond saying, in a roundabout way "make sure you can't be two-shot".

Should I really be gemming for stamina, even after having "enough"? And just how much is "enough", in discrete terms?
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100 Dwarf Paladin
14005
You will get better help in the tank forums than pally forums for tanking stuff.

No, Mr. Robot is wrong and incorrectly values stam over everything. If you don't change the default stat weights then it will steer you wrong. A lot of people will recommend reforge lite over Mr. Robot anyway. I haven't used it since Cata but it was good then. Make sure you know your correct stat weights though for any reforge resource.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20915
Stacking stam is stupid, and the weights the robot uses are frequently wrong... and for tanks, they're amazingly arbitrary. Since for one it weighs haste well below mastery.

Tells me to gem expertise on my warrior.

"Enough" stam is when you feel comfortable with your health pool or bosses in the content you are doing don't have any abilities that can instantly kill you.
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100 Tauren Druid
8725
Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We worked with Theck on these stat weights. Both us and Theck from SacredDuty agree that stamina-heavy builds are better for tanks. You actually need to favor stamina more in 25 man raids than 10man raids since the bosses don't hit as hard. Also, if you are having trouble surviving, Stamina will be better. If you aren't dying, you can drop some stamina.

The amount of stamina each tank prefers is pretty individual, so set it to a level where you are no longer dying. You can do 2 things on our site: set the stat weight lower, down to 1.3 should start giving you hybrid gems. Even lower and you won't get any stamina from gems. Alternatively, you can leave stamina high and put a cap on it. This will say, "Hey, Mr. Robot, get me to 30,000 stamina, then give me other stats... with 30k stamina, I don't die."

Cayse: we have several preset stat weights you can choose from for tanking. You can choose to favor Control/Mastery, Control/Haste, and Avoidance. Perhaps you had the Mastery preset selected? Also, give me your warrior's character name and I'll see what's going on.

More resources:
How to edit stat weights: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2013/01/how-to-edit-stat-weights/
How Mr. Robot gets his stat weights: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2013/02/how-does-mr-robot-get-his-stat-weights/
Theck's blog: http://sacredduty.net/2013/03/05/5-2-protection-links-and-qa/
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
Is Mr. Robot right?

No. Never.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
14005
03/13/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Zoopercat
Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We worked with Theck on these stat weights. Both us and Theck from SacredDuty agree that stamina-heavy builds are better for tanks. You actually need to favor stamina more in 25 man raids than 10man raids since the bosses don't hit as hard. Also, if you are having trouble surviving, Stamina will be better. If you aren't dying, you can drop some stamina.


No, you are wrong. Stop posting this kind of stuff. You are like a payday loans hawker of bad info. Do you not realize there are no tanks on this forum who like your tool? That's not random.
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100 Tauren Druid
8725
If you can point out what you disagree with, we will take that into consideration. We are always updating the tool with tweaks to improve it, based on user feedback. You have not stated what you disagree with, so I can't make it better :(
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100 Dwarf Paladin
14005
You are a tool for people who can't/won't work out stats for themselves. By going to use a tool they have already displayed that they want to put less effort into optimizing. You provide a tool that requires almost as much if not more work to use "correctly". Therefore you get a lot of OK players going and using your tool and getting bad info. Your tool is hard to use, clunky, inefficient, visually difficult to read and has too many buttons/options for your target audience. You make a poor product with the wrong audience in mind and think you're doing good work and that irritates me.

Too add. I don't dislike the players who don't want to put forth the effort to optimize themselves and instead use a tool. I understand you may not have the time, ability, desire to do it. It's the people misleading you that irk me.
Edited by Ussil on 3/13/2013 6:29 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
It sounds like you're optimizing AMR for heroic 25-man raiding, which is...okay, but most people who use it aren't gong to be doing heroic 25-man raids, which makes using that as the default setting a rather poor choice.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
Ussil pretty much hits it on the head. AMR can be made into a decent tool by tinkering with the settings, but at that point it's no better at its job than a little common sense and a reforging addon.
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100 Tauren Druid
8725
Sorry you don't like the interface. We actually update it based on user actions (we can see if people are or are not clicking certain buttons, etc). Not everyone will like what we come up with :(

As for doing the math yourself - there are actually millions of combinations of optimizations and it ends up being an npcomplete problem. Let's say you just assume that there are 3 smart reforges for 15 pieces of gear. That's 3^15, which is 14,000,000 combinations of reforges. That's a lot of math to do in your head. But with tools like Ask Mr. Robot, SimC, etc, it can be done with little effort :)

Re: Keten, we actually try to reach the average player. We also offer different stat weight presets that work better for different gear levels. We know most people won't get all Heroic gear, so we don't assume that in the weights :)
Edited by Zoopercat on 3/13/2013 6:39 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
Well, I don't use it, so I don't know how the system is set up, but it seems like everyone who goes there gets a ton of stamina shoved at them unless they configure the weights. That makes it sound like the default is set to 25-man heroic stat weights. Even if it's changeable, having the default set there can be very misleading to people who a) don't know that stat weights can change based on raid type or b) don't know that you can change AMR's settings.
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100 Tauren Druid
8725
Keten, I see what you're saying. Yeah, we could set a default cap on stamina - then the question is what is the 'right' amount for the average person? We can look into that and see what the average tank is running on world of logs or something. But it's something we can totally do, and might be a good idea :) Thanks for posting.
Edited by Zoopercat on 3/13/2013 6:54 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Paladin
14005
The right amount is 0. The only tanks who ever care about going for stam are not using your tool. If you want one simple easy critique from me its set stam weight to 0. You get the stam you need from gear appropriate to what you are raiding.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9840
You are a tool for people who can't/won't work out stats for themselves. By going to use a tool they have already displayed that they want to put less effort into optimizing. You provide a tool that requires almost as much if not more work to use "correctly". Therefore you get a lot of OK players going and using your tool and getting bad info. Your tool is hard to use, clunky, inefficient, visually difficult to read and has too many buttons/options for your target audience. You make a poor product with the wrong audience in mind and think you're doing good work and that irritates me.

Too add. I don't dislike the players who don't want to put forth the effort to optimize themselves and instead use a tool. I understand you may not have the time, ability, desire to do it. It's the people misleading you that irk me.


In short, what the below poster said:

Ussil pretty much hits it on the head. AMR can be made into a decent tool by tinkering with the settings, but at that point it's no better at its job than a little common sense and a reforging addon.


In long: AMR is a tool. Allow me to elaborate.

On their own, tools are of little use. For example, what good is a screwdriver to you if you don't know how to use it?

When you add in some knowledge, tools can be made into a very good thing, or a very bad thing. Take that same screwdriver: Used correctly, it significantly aids the user in installing and uninstalling screws, used for countless applications. Used INcorrectly, you could take your eye out if you poked yourself with it.

AMR is literally no different. If you use it incorrectly, it's going to do bad things; for example, if you go to optimize a mage and tell it that Intellect has a weight of 0.01 and Strength has a weight of 50, AMR is going to give you as much Strength as it possibly can. Yes, that's a bad thing, but it's your own dang fault for using bad weights. (EDIT: Actually, I checked. AMR won't even let you weight Strength on a mage. The point still stands: If you use obviously wrong weights, you're going to get obviously wrong "optimizations".*)

Used correctly, (IE, with weights perfectly tuned to your class, spec, and even your own individual playstyle), AMR can optimize your gear in a fraction of the time it would take you to work it out yourself.

The one thing you can always count on is that AMR will find the highest possible score it can using all available permutations of gems, enchants, and reforges, based on stat weights you give it. It's up to the user to ensure that highest possible score equates to the highest possible performance.

Tell me, why exactly are people complaining that AMR is being misused? That misuse is a direct result of the user, not a fault of AMR.

However, this is getting off topic. In short, this thread was created to ask why Stamina is weighted so high by default. I truly want to know: Why does AMR and/or Theck weight Stamina as high as they do?

(*EDIT redux: If you want an example that AMR will actually permit, you could, as a mage, weight Stamina as 50 and everything else as 0. The result will be just as abysmal. And it'll be your own fault.)
Edited by Ashleym on 3/13/2013 8:13 PM PDT
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86 Draenei Hunter
1910
I can find other sources suggesting stacking stamina is the best strategy besides Ask Mr. Robot. Seems to me that more evidence exists to support Ask Mr. Robot's theorycrafting than what some naysayers are arguing. ("Stacking" is the wrong word here due to other stats having valid weights comparable as part of a tanking package of stats. But I use linguistic freedoms here.)

It's not the robot's fault if players use the information it provides incorrectly. The tool is actually correct when used in the appropriate contexts and provides correct information tailored to certain environments that are mathematically superior in those environments. If you change the environment and use the same gear stat weights, that's not the tool's fault, nor does the data it provided at the time become magically "wrong." The player changed up the gameplan, not the robot.

And the robot does have different settings to adjust the scenarios accordingly for those who favor other environments.

Making blanket statements about the rightness or wrongness of a robot that cannot change its stat weights to accommodate every possible environment (which would be meaningless data and non-ideal in ANY single environment) is quite unfair to AMR.

AMR does too much work for the benefit of our WOW community to have words like "stupid" and "bad info" being thrown around carelessly without data to back up those claims.
Edited by Nantucket on 3/13/2013 7:44 PM PDT
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86 Draenei Hunter
1910
Ashleym said it much better than I. /tips hat
Edited by Nantucket on 3/13/2013 7:45 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Paladin
14005
However, this is getting off topic. In short, this thread was created to ask why Stamina is weighted so high by default. I truly want to know: Why does AMR and/or Theck weight Stamina as high as they do?


That's my biggest beef with AMR. It's just flat out wrong for anyone who needs a recourse for optimization. Flat out the only people who need to stack stam are not using tools like AMR.

Stam is stacked high so tanks dont get one shot by heroic mode bosses. Those bosses will only oneshot you 15-20 ilvl below what you currently are because they are doing heroics now rather than two-three weeks when you are. By the time anyone needs info for heroics from a tool like AMR they have the gear to ignore stam stacking.

AMR just give bad information to people and propagates a negative image of those who use it.
Edited by Ussil on 3/13/2013 8:35 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
8725
Hey Ashleym,
Spike damage is the most common cause of deaths in raids. A lot of time this comes from non-physical sources, like a spell that a boss uses. So most gearing techniques for a tank don't mitigate magic attacks (you can't dodge or block magic). Stamina then gives your healers a larger cushion to deal with the spike damage.

I know that Theck has a ton of theorycrafting around that lying around somewhere, but that's the summary. Hope that's useful :)

My best advice for you is to set a Stamina hard cap at the point where you aren't dying on every boss pull. That allows stamina to be really important, up to your 'max,' then Mr. Robot will focus on other stats after he hits that cap.

ps (thanks for noticing how much work we do to help the community. It's one of those things that rarely gets said, and when it does, it makes my day!!!)
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100 Dwarf Paladin
14005
Hey Ashleym,
Spike damage is the most common cause of deaths in raids.

You re not a god damn pharmaceuticals company.

The problem Zoo is that you advertise yourself as a one stop shop to better optimization and many people get screwed because of it. That in turn aggravates people who know what to do and see your customers hurting our image.

You make the tanking population worse with your presence.
Edited by Ussil on 3/13/2013 8:56 PM PDT
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