Is Mr. Robot right? [Prot]

100 Tauren Paladin
12015
Spike damage is the most common cause of deaths in raids. A lot of time this comes from non-physical sources, like a spell that a boss uses. So most gearing techniques for a tank don't mitigate magic attacks (you can't dodge or block magic). Stamina then gives your healers a larger cushion to deal with the spike damage.

Big magic attacks are almost always on a set timer. Proper usage of cooldowns will totally prevent those spikes. Most of the dangerous spikes are caused by failing to avoid several melee attacks in a row, which is why haste/mastery gearing is preferred (because they don't rely on avoidance to reduce damage).

Stamina will give you a larger cushion to deal with spikes, that's true. Stacking stamina at the expense of other stats will also cause you to take more damage, forcing the healers to spend more time and mana healing you for the same effect. The term "mana sponge" didn't come out of nothing, after all. Now, if your healers just have regen coming out of their ears and spending more mana on you isn't an issue, well, more power to them. But unless you're at risk of dying in a few hits, you're not doing your healers any favors by stacking stamina.

Obviously all that flies out the window on any fight heavily favoring magic (which is incredibly rare) and on some 25-man heroic encounters, but, again, most people using a tool like AMR aren't going to be 25-man heroic raiders, and the tool probably doesn't go "EXCUSE ME ARE YOU PROGRESSING ON LEI SHI RIGHT NOW BECAUSE YOU NEED DIFFERENT STATS FOR THAT" when they try to use it.
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86 Draenei Hunter
1910
You re not a god damn pharmaceuticals company.

The problem Zoo is that you advertise yourself as a one stop shop to better optimization and many people get screwed because of it. That in turn aggravates people who know what to do and see your customers hurting our image.

You make the tanking population worse with your presence.


Interesting choice of words here. I work in this industry as a licensed professional. And believe me when I tell you that EVERYTHING we do is based of evidence and well established practices.

We don't flaunt biased and nonfounded opinions off as facts willingly. Cause ya know...that gets us in trouble.

And we're all still waiting on the evidence-based claims you keep making to support ARM as having devolved the tanking community into "badness."

Zoo may be a more patient person than I, but this unfounded criticism of yours is downright unwarranted. Burden of proof is on you sir.
Edited by Nantucket on 3/13/2013 9:09 PM PDT
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86 Draenei Hunter
1910
Obviously all that flies out the window on any fight heavily favoring magic (which is incredibly rare) and on some 25-man heroic encounters, but, again, most people using a tool like AMR aren't going to be 25-man heroic raiders, and the tool probably doesn't go "EXCUSE ME ARE YOU PROGRESSING ON LEI SHI RIGHT NOW BECAUSE YOU NEED DIFFERENT STATS FOR THAT" when they try to use it.


Tools don't use themselves. The burden is on the player to setup the stat weights tailored to his/her needs. If the player fails this step, it's not the tool's fault.

But you do present very valid arguments about avoiding "stacking" stamina. A stamina-only strategy is definitely non-ideal. I don't think ARM is advocating completely stacking stamina, however.
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86 Draenei Hunter
1910
I think I should point out before my detractors cry wolf on me, that I have no associations or "fanboyish" devotion to the use of ARM or similar addons designed to assist the player with character optimization.

I should further clarify I have used such tools on my own toons very seldomly, largely due to my dislike of being restricted to using certain stats. However, I understand the value of such tools for players needing every last ounce of performance from their toons.

I attempt personally to manage a healthy stat balance so that my toons can adapt to varying scenarios more easily, at the expense of min/maxing dps in certain environments. Unless I were interested in realm first achievements, my strategy actually serves me quite well for my goals.

Concerning debating in favor of player choice of stat weights to meet individual goals: That's a valid gearing strategy that honestly doesn't require the use of ARM or addons to achieve.
Edited by Nantucket on 3/13/2013 9:24 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
I don't think ARM is advocating completely stacking stamina, however.


Maybe you should read the thread or go try it out, because on every setting that it uses, unless you specify your own weights, the robot advocates full out stamina. And not just in gemming, in enchants as well. That is exactly what people mean when they say stack stamina.

And as was also said multiple times in this thread, the people who need the help of this tool are not people who are going to know about setting weights, or even that you can. Why? Because they don't know the game or its mechanics well enough. That's why they need the tool.

Nor does the tool even come with so much as a basic guide suggesting that this needs to be done, it simply, as the druid stated, gives you a "default set of weights" and sends you on your merry way. And any good theorycrafter, especially a dps theory crafter, can tell you that static stat weights are a lie in themselves.

And so whenever anyone comes to the forums and says "well mr robot said this was right" and it is very clearly not right, that is the "evidence" that the tool is steering people wrong. And those threads are not hard to find, I see at least one a week... and you know what else is in those threads? Multiple people, informed people, telling the people who created that thread asking for help to stop using that tool because it is steering them wrong.

I obviously don't need to tell you how the robot is presented since you so faithfully jumped up to defend it from us evil people maligning it, and I'm sure you've obviously used it so let me ask you; when you first went to it, did you go to the dropdown to select a set of weight options (if there even was any)? Did you click edit weights? (if you went to it long enough ago, that wasn't even an easy option to find)

Or did you go hit the big Optimize! button, copy what it said and just assumed that what it told you was right.. and never even thought, or checked, if that was the case?
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86 Draenei Hunter
1910
Maybe you should read the thread or go try it out, because on every setting that it uses, unless you specify your own weights, the robot advocates full out stamina. And not just in gemming, in enchants as well. That is exactly what people mean when they say stack stamina.

And as was also said multiple times in this thread, the people who need the help of this tool are not people who are going to know about setting weights, or even that you can. Why? Because they don't know the game or its mechanics well enough. That's why they need the tool.

Nor does the tool even come with so much as a basic guide suggesting that this needs to be done, it simply, as the druid stated, gives you a "default set of weights" and sends you on your merry way. And any good theorycrafter, especially a dps theory crafter, can tell you that static stat weights are a lie in themselves.

And so whenever anyone comes to the forums and says "well mr robot said this was right" and it is very clearly not right, that is the "evidence" that the tool is steering people wrong. And those threads are not hard to find, I see at least one a week... and you know what else is in those threads? Multiple people, informed people, telling the people who created that thread asking for help to stop using that tool because it is steering them wrong.

I obviously don't need to tell you how the robot is presented since you so faithfully jumped up to defend it from us evil people maligning it, and I'm sure you've obviously used it so let me ask you; when you first went to it, did you go to the dropdown to select a set of weight options (if there even was any)? Did you click edit weights? (if you went to it long enough ago, that wasn't even an easy option to find)

Or did you go hit the big Optimize! button, copy what it said and just assumed that what it told you was right.. and never even thought, or checked, if that was the case?


I'm sorry Cayse. I don't take others recommendations blindly without first researching the varying settings and adjustments that I could make. And the vast bulk of enchants and gems do not generally only include stamina and ONLY stamina on them. You'd be hard pressed to accomplish this strategy.

Nice try though.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
No, you are wrong. Stop posting this kind of stuff. You are like a payday loans hawker of bad info. Do you not realize there are no tanks on this forum who like your tool? That's not random.


This guy...Is very angry.

I like him.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
14070
And we're all still waiting on the evidence-based claims you keep making to support ARM as having devolved the tanking community into "badness."

Zoo may be a more patient person than I, but this unfounded criticism of yours is downright unwarranted. Burden of proof is on you sir.


Unfortunately for me I can't link you any one thing that will prove anything for me. All I can give you is my own experiences on the tanking sub-forum. Every single tank who comes asking about AMR and if it is good or not is stacking stam. The overwhelming opinion of the tank sub-forum is that AMR is bad and you should not be using it. All I see when someone posts AMR is someone who has been misled.

But you do present very valid arguments about avoiding "stacking" stamina. A stamina-only strategy is definitely non-ideal. I don't think ARM is advocating completely stacking stamina, however.


AMR, due to its stat weights, does advocate stack stam till ICC is back in vogue to the casual user (aka their main demographic)
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86 Draenei Hunter
1910
Stacking stamina is easy enough. You grab stamina, more stamina, more stamina, no need to worry about stat weights at all. Just stam stam stam, etc. Did I mention stam? Oh, except for the fact that few of the current best enchants and gems include ONLY stamina on them.

I'm fairly certain AMR is more complicated that just a stamina supporter. Oh, and they can link all kinds of mathematical evidence in their favor. Just ask em real nicely, they'd be happy to oblige.
Edited by Nantucket on 3/13/2013 9:33 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/wyrmrest_accord/ashleym

Go on, push that optimize button and come tell us that the robot's default settings are not absolutely telling tanks to stack stamina beyond reason. It's skipping bonuses and using stamina armor kits to do it.

That is if you can stop rubbing off on them long enough.

It's really sad how you are either this grossly uninformed yet managed to track down this thread so you can pump up the robot this obviously, or you really came in here despite your direct and unquestioned statement that you didn't, to try and tell people that it's a fantastic tool we're just too dumb to use but are really this uninformed as to the game mechanics.
Edited by Cayse on 3/13/2013 9:37 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
I know AMR is just a tool and that it's probably great once you customize the stat weights for yourself. But like Cayse said, we constantly get people in here stacking stamina at the expense of all other stats and when we tell them not to they say AMR told them to.

The average user is not going to first look up their stat weights. The average user is not going to run their character through SimCraft or whatever before they try to use AMR. The average user is going to load up AMR, input their character, and use the default settings, because they don't know any better, and the default settings are obviously not correct for the average user. That's the problem.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
14070
Again. The person using AMR does not know or care about "default stat weights". AMR is misleading them into poor itemization because AMR assumes they do heroics week two.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9840
Hey Ashleym,
Spike damage is the most common cause of deaths in raids. A lot of time this comes from non-physical sources, like a spell that a boss uses. So most gearing techniques for a tank don't mitigate magic attacks (you can't dodge or block magic). Stamina then gives your healers a larger cushion to deal with the spike damage.

I know that Theck has a ton of theorycrafting around that lying around somewhere, but that's the summary. Hope that's useful :)


Precisely what I was looking for; thank you!

To address everyone else that would disagree: Why do you think stacking stamina is bad? I hear a lot of "Stacking stamina is bad, mmkay?", but I'm not hearing a lot of reasoning as to why.

My best advice for you is to set a Stamina hard cap at the point where you aren't dying on every boss pull. That allows stamina to be really important, up to your 'max,' then Mr. Robot will focus on other stats after he hits that cap.


Alas, that's the problem. In fact, that might be one of the core reasons a lot of people are complaining about AMR in general.

It's difficult to objectively tell how much is "enough". In addition, "enough" will change based on the individual encounter and the healers you have. This is more apparent in LFR; no amount of stamina will save you if healers 1 though 4 all died to standing in the fire, healer 5 is pretending to DPS, and healer 6 is AFK because someone rang the doorbell. And that's just to make an extreme example. The point is: It's not always clear why the tank died, so it's not always clear if you have "enough" stamina. Conversely, it's also not always clear why the tank lived; maybe you DON'T have enough stamina, but you simply managed to dodge every second attack, so healers never had a problem.

Long story short: Tanking can't be measured like DPS can. While you can always say for sure that 120k DPS is greater than 110k, which is greater than 100k, which is greater than 90k, there isn't a visible "survival rating" that tanks can use to clearly rank their performance.

ps (thanks for noticing how much work we do to help the community. It's one of those things that rarely gets said, and when it does, it makes my day!!!)


This one is simple.

To most people, math is hard.

To me, math is easy. (I can say with decent certainty that to you, math is also easy.)

AMR is a tool that uses math to optimize gear. As I've already mentioned, it takes knowledge of a tool to use it correctly, so to most people, for whom math is hard, using AMR is hard. Thus they complain.

There's also the problem that people are vocally negative. In general, people are more likely to voice a negative opinion than a positive one.

Don't let those complaints get to you. You've done a beautiful job.
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86 Draenei Hunter
1910
I can count at least 50% of gear pieces with modifications listed as requiring other stats other than stamina only. With only a few moments of checking.

You're right, I'm not reading this article you keep mentioning. I have eyes to figure out what AMR (or Lord only knows who else) is suggesting regarding stamina stacking without needing somebody else's explanation. Imagine that.

In fact, AMR doesn't even recommend stamina at all concerning Avoidance builds regarding stat weights, and yet stamina does appear in several slots simply due to lack of dodge/parry options.

And just stop it with the silly statements about how a tool is "misleading" anybody. The tool doesn't enchant your stuff. The player does. Top that folks. The player wants to interpret things blindly? Player did it.
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86 Draenei Hunter
1910
I know AMR is just a tool and that it's probably great once you customize the stat weights for yourself. But like Cayse said, we constantly get people in here stacking stamina at the expense of all other stats and when we tell them not to they say AMR told them to.

The average user is not going to first look up their stat weights. The average user is not going to run their character through SimCraft or whatever before they try to use AMR. The average user is going to load up AMR, input their character, and use the default settings, because they don't know any better, and the default settings are obviously not correct for the average user. That's the problem.


So blame the ignorant players and not the tool? All I'm suggesting here. I mean, you folks aren't seriously blaming a tool that can't even think for itself like a human can, now are ya???

Cause that's what it sounds like. The blasted tool screwed me up! I can't believe that tool let me enchant my stuff without first checking all my sources. I can't believe I might actually need to understand the mechanics of stats rather than copying somebody else's template for success. All I have to do is copy ALL THE THINGS. That always works, right?

/end sarcasm
Edited by Nantucket on 3/13/2013 9:47 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
03/13/2013 09:39 PMPosted by Ashleym
To address everyone else that would disagree: Why do you think stacking stamina is bad? I hear a lot of "Stacking stamina is bad, mmkay?", but I'm not hearing a lot of reasoning as to why.


Because those spikes are nearly always very predictable spikes, are only really dangerous (ie; actually big enough to one-shot) in heroic modes, are fairly dangerous in normals if you had no idea they were coming and didn't use an appropriate cooldown, and are absolutely nonexistent in LFR.

What stamina does is give you and your healers a buffer to react to those big spikes, time from when the big spike hits you to the next regular hits. If you only do LFR, or only do normal modes, as Ussil said already, your basic gear gives you more than enough health to handle those spikes already. You don't need extra stamina, which means you can gear for other stats which make you easier to heal for the entire rest of the fight, not just the big spike hit... being easier to heal means your healer's mana is stable and when those big spikes come, they have the mana and the cooldowns to keep you alive.

You can armory many of the top geared, highest progression tanks in the world and you will pretty much never see a pure stamina gem in their gear and will often find that they don't log out wearing stamina trinkets. They have enough health without even doing that. On the fights where there are those really big spikes, they change trinkets.

This is more apparent in LFR; no amount of stamina will save you if healers 1 though 4 all died to standing in the fire, healer 5 is pretending to DPS, and healer 6 is AFK because someone rang the doorbell.


Nothing can save us from LFR!

Seeing why you died is generally easy.. get a dps meter like recount and put it on Deaths. Scroll down to your point of death and start scrolling up. Did you get any single very large hits, or did you have 10-15 seconds of fairly regular small hits and nobody bothered to heal you. Frequently, you died because LFR.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
03/13/2013 09:43 PMPosted by Nantucket
In fact, AMR doesn't even recommend stamina at all concerning Avoidance builds regarding stat weights, and yet stamina does appear in several slots simply due to lack of dodge/parry options.


You can stop right there.

If you want to continue lying, just leave. Get your garbage out of here.

Robot takes Ashleym's gear and on every set of default weights, it puts stamina, and usually pure stamina in every single slot.

So seriously, stop lying. Stop pretending.

If you're not going to even inform yourself on what we're even talking about, you can't even contribute to this thread, you had no reason to even come into it unless you really are that desperate to make the robot seem better than it is. No matter what, you're not helping. You're making it look even worse and making yourself look foolish and ignorant when you say things that are obviously so uninformed.
Edited by Cayse on 3/13/2013 9:55 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
To address everyone else that would disagree: Why do you think stacking stamina is bad? I hear a lot of "Stacking stamina is bad, mmkay?", but I'm not hearing a lot of reasoning as to why.

The issue with stacking stamina is that it increases your damage taken (because you lose mitigation/avoidance) without a real gain (since you're still able to take the hits), but at the same time requiring more healing--that's less time and mana the healers have to spend on other people.

In ICC, for example, stacking stamina was The Thing To Do because bosses hit so incredibly hard that you needed that health just to survive long enough to be healed. But that's not the case anymore. In most content, the stamina you have on gear is enough to keep you alive for several hits. At that point, the focus isn't on not dying in a few hits but rather on taking less damage overall, to help your healers.

The only time this changes is when you get to content that hits hard enough to once again require that stamina buffer just to survive (which is basically just 25-man heroics at this point) and fights that are heavily focused on magical damage, in which case most other stats don't help survival.
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86 Draenei Hunter
1910
You can stop right there.

If you want to continue lying, just leave. Get your garbage out of here.

Robot takes Ashleym's gear and on every set of default weights, it puts stamina, and usually pure stamina in every single slot.

So seriously, stop lying. Stop pretending.


Ok Cayse, I sure hate to make you look bad here. But nah, it'll actually be my pleasure.

Every single slot you say??

Hmm, let's see....using the default recommendations for an Avoidance build as an example...
you did fail to specify which type of build, so I'll just choose a default Avoidance setup here. Do please note that Stamina is not the primary concern for Avoidance setups. Your preferred stats will include Hit + Expertise to cap if desired, with parry and dodge coming next in line. Stamina is largely relegated to the default values on the gear pieces with the ideal secondaries and is not a focus in the slightest.

The leg pieces will use 430 stamina + 165 dodge, the bracers 160 mastery, shoulders 300 stamina 100 dodge, the offhand (shield) 170 parry.

Oh, and the reforging goes to either mastery, expertise, or hit on the various slots.

Now what's this I hear about PURE STAMINA stacking in every slot, miss?

Again, nice try.
Edited by Nantucket on 3/13/2013 10:13 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
So blame the ignorant players and not the tool? All I'm suggesting here. I mean, you folks aren't seriously blaming a tool that can't even think for itself like a human can, now are ya???

Cause that's what it sounds like. The blasted tool screwed me up! I can't believe that tool let me enchant my stuff without first checking all my sources. I can't believe I might actually need to understand the mechanics of stats rather than copying somebody else's template for success. All I have to do is copy ALL THE THINGS. That always works, right?

/end sarcasm

It's not directly AMR's fault. Like I said, it's probably great if you know exactly what you need from it. But those who know what they need from it also know how to use it (or know that they need to find out how). They'll know that they need to check the stat weights and change them if necessary. They're not going to get screwed up by the system.

The average user is getting screwed up by the system. Why have the default set for the person who's going to change it anyway? Why not set it to what the average person will be using? That way, both parties benefit.
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