Is Mr. Robot right? [Prot]

86 Draenei Hunter
1790
It's not directly AMR's fault. Like I said, it's probably great if you know exactly what you need from it. But those who know what they need from it also know how to use it (or know that they need to find out how). They'll know that they need to check the stat weights and change them if necessary. They're not going to get screwed up by the system.

The average user is getting screwed up by the system. Why have the default set for the person who's going to change it anyway? Why not set it to what the average person will be using? That way, both parties benefit.


Who is to determine what the "average" player is using? Technically, the vast majority of players are not level 90 raiders, whom the system was originally designed towards.

And even amongst level 90s, there is considerable variation in gear progression, which will have strong influences on stat weights.

Take warriors as an example. Arms DPS typically outperforms Fury DPS until such a point that the player can surpass around 20% crit rating overall. At which point, the player changes specs to accommodate Fury and thus shifting the package of stat weights further since the abilities are now changed in the rotation. Crit still being predominant obviously.

The robot is a reasonable solution to a user of average skill and has a plethora of data to support its recommendations.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19185
03/13/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Nantucket
Ok Cayse, I sure hate to make you look bad here. But nah, it'll actually be my pleasure.


This is going to go badly for you.

03/13/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Nantucket
an Avoidance build as an example...


Starting off in a real negative place here.

03/13/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Nantucket
The leg pieces will use 430 stamina + 165 dodge, the bracers 160 mastery, shoulders 300 stamina 100 dodge, the offhand (shield) 170 parry.


Just so we're clear, you understand your objective was to try and prove me wrong. The only two pieces that don't have stamina in that list don't have the option to use stamina, short of going to enchants from previous expansions.

You also managed to skip the enchant on hands and feet, because why? Oh, they are pure stamina enchants.

03/13/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Nantucket
Oh, and the reforging goes to either mastery, expertise, or hit on the various slots.


Head on up to a reforger and try to reforge some of those stats in to stamina. I'll wait.

03/13/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Nantucket
Now what's this I hear about PURE STAMINA stacking in every slot, miss?


Head, solid serpent's eye
Shoulder, solid river's heart
Chest, two puissiant wild jade
Hands, defender's imperial amethyst
Belt, solid serpent's eye, solid river's heart
Legs, defender's imperial amethyst

In every gem slot, a gem with stamina. Using a control set, the default weight set (and the correct one, I might add, and you would know if you knew anything about tanks), it forgoes matching the chest gem socket colors for two pure stamina gems.

Feel free with whatever act (for your sake I really hope that this is an act you're doing) for however long you want, but you are wrong, and you are making yourself look extremely foolish.
Edited by Cayse on 3/13/2013 10:10 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
If AMR was a "reasonable solution to a user of average skill" it would not be telling the average user to stack stamina at the expense of every other stat.

I understand what you're saying, but the default setting for tanks is basically useless. None of the five tanks stack stamina under most circumstances. If AMR's default setting was truly being tailored towards a user of average skill, it would focus on the stats useful in the settings that the average user could be expected to be doing (i.e. five-man dungeons, LFR, normal mode raids).

While there is some variation, there's not a huge difference between stat priorities for LFR, normal 10, normal 25, or heroic 10. It's not until heroic 25 that stamina becomes so much more important, and the average user using the default setting is probably not going to be doing heroic 25-mans. So why is AMR's default setting for heroic 25?
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86 Draenei Hunter
1790
Yea Cayse, I already knew that reforging couldn't give you stamina. Don't pretend to educate me on that topic. Ain't my first rodeo girl.

But you were the one who made the claim about pure stamina being on every slot. Not me. You do realize you even quoted me with the words "PURE STAMINA" in all caps and making it sound like those secondary stats aren't important at all to a tank's survival, right? I mean, I'll clean my glasses and check. Hold on a moment....NOPE, I think you did. I'm fairly certain there's some more words in those slots besides stamina ma'am.

I didn't read the rest of your post at all. Don't need to since I'm not the one making false claims. I mean seriously, the only way your prior posts would be valid is if AMR suggested stamina and nothing else. The site wouldn't even bother telling you to consider gems with dodge on it. If it's got more words than stamina on them, the answer is no! Haha. Not what AMR is actually suggesting though.
Edited by Nantucket on 3/13/2013 10:21 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19185
You really are sad.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12555
Why is this still a discussion? AMR is bad and you should feel bad for using and/or defending it.

@OP my first post (the very second post in the thread) is about all you need to know. If you want more, repost in the tank forums where people better and more knowledgeable than I can help you
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
And just for the record, since I'm going to bed and don't feel like discussing this anymore anyway, all I'm saying is this:

Set the default stat weight for tanks to LFR/normal 10/normal 25/heroic 10, since that's what the majority of raiders using AMR will be doing. Leave heroic 25/"stamina in ALL the things!" as an option for those who want it. It's a simple fix that would ease a lot of headaches.
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86 Draenei Hunter
1790
Either way, I'm signing off this debate. I don't really fancy arguing with individuals who when presented with evidence to the contrary continue to make false claims.

Long story short, I vote for AMR being more than just a pure stamina stacker tool. And other people think otherwise, I guess? I haven't really figured that part out yet. /shrug
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Nan, just GTFO; if you don't have a tank and/or have never used AMR for anything since T11, you know not of what you speak. It's been absolutely horrible for this entire expansion for anything I've ever tried, and wasn't so hot in Firelands or beyond back in Cata.

The Robot, much like Noxxic, is terrible - avoid at all costs.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
The Robot, much like Noxxic, is terrible - avoid at all costs.

All you really need is EJ, a little common sense, and a reforging addon.
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So I have a couple solutions - it's one of the reasons I stop by these threads. Mr. Robot loves user feedback, although he prefers constructive ideas, he can read between the lines when it is negative too :( But it makes him go on ice-cream-cookie-eating binges sometimes.

So my understanding - the big complaint is that we don't have a default stamina cap. Transmission received. Keten, thanks for being clear and constructive :)

So, we have a little promo spot where we try to tell users about cool things. For example, this week I've been running promos that tell people about settings in the options menu, point people to more information on trinkets, explain to people how Haste affects RPPM trinkets, and even let people know that trinkets were buffed yesterday. We've also been pointing people to ToT boss guides to get ready for LFR and other 5.2 content. And of course, we link people to guides specific to their class so they can read up more about playing. We are here to help players!!!

So, how about this: I'll run a promo spot that points to the tanking specs, and help them learn how to set the stamina cap to their personal preference :) That should be easy enough and everyone wins!
Edited by Zoopercat on 3/13/2013 11:04 PM PDT
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I made a little promo spot. Now I have to finish writing a blog post to point people to. Booyah! Problem solving :)

http://blog.askmrrobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/stamina.png
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12555
Spin it however you want Zoo. You have a lot more than stam to fix before AMR is a good tool. If you want to add a stam cap my vote goes to 0. Unless you are on heroics week two, the stam you get from gear, blue gemslots (hybrid gems of cours, never solid), and he few enchants that have stam on them is more than enough for you.

I'm... moderately happy to provide you feedback. I am much more happy to direct people away from your tool entirely though. Again, you have a lot more work than just a stam cap to be a useful tool.
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90 Human Paladin
13125
Cayse, I normally tend to agree with you on things, but I just can't here. Mr. Robot as a tool works fine. If you read the forums and what Theck has posted there (which is based on the research he posts on his blog), the default weights use gearing that's what he finds best for heroic modes (Theck really prefers a lot of stamina). From that point, a person can customize it if they don't like that much stamina. He also mentions that if you reduce the stamina weight by .2 then it will start to transition you over to balanced gemming (haste/stam or mastery/stam), which indeed does just that.

Mr. Robot is a tool, and when used properly, it does a great job.

03/13/2013 10:51 PMPosted by Elidra
The Robot, much like Noxxic, is terrible - avoid at all costs.

All you really need is EJ, a little common sense, and a reforging addon.


EJ simply has the same research that Theck has done, he inputs a ton on EJ. Theck's view is that stam is a Paladin's best stat, except for during farm or for lower end raiding.

http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=5359.msg32998#msg32998

That's the weights Theck has come up, and gives details about them.

the stam you get from gear, blue gemslots (hybrid gems of cours, never solid), and he few enchants that have stam on them is more than enough for you.


All you have to do to switch to hybrid gems is drop the weight of stamina to 1.3 as Theck has mentioned in his post.
Edited by Bravehearth on 3/13/2013 11:51 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12555
Who is Theck and why do we care? Google told me he plays a paladin and has a blog. I can go make a blog in 2 minutes. Paying domain names is hard.
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90 Human Paladin
13125
Who is Theck and why do we care? Google told me he plays a paladin and has a blog. I can go make a blog in 2 minutes. Paying domain names is hard.


He's the one that does the bulk of all theorycrafting for Paladin tanks, has degrees in mathematics, etc.

If you've ever read EJ info on prot paladins, Theck was behind a lot of the research. Same for if you've gone to Tankspot, or Maintankadin. His research is what the paladin tank guide here on these forums is based on. He's the one that did the math to prove why haste is good, why mastery is good, etc.
Edited by Bravehearth on 3/13/2013 11:56 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9465
Oi...It usually takes a lot to make my head hurt in confusion, but Theck has managed it.

ALRIGHT. SO. Here's what I've come up with, after digging through a lot of what sacredduty.net has to say.

Stamina is not objectively the best tank stat. Theck even admits to having a "stamina bias", which I interpret as him admitting he probably likes the stat a bit too much.

In the past, stamina was objectively the best tank stat, because there was a time (ICC) when bosses hit so hard, that you had to be able to survive two consecutive melee swings, or you were doomed.

Currently, Theck seems to believe that stamina is still the best stat to stack because it fights burst damage. A lot of his more recent simulations, which determined his stat weights currently used for the default AMR builds, are focused on finding gearing strategies that most effectively lower the severity of spikes, as well as reduce the frequency of the biggest ones. His mindset is that you will be easier to heal if you take damage in a consistent pattern, because he feels that the biggest mana sinks for healers is when they react to large spikes and are forced to resort to inefficient heals in order to keep the tank up.

So, my individual thoughts, based on this:

-There is no one right answer. It's all situational. There are too many highly-dynamic variables involved to create an accurate model applicable to everyone. Your optimal gearing strategy will vary even with the individual healers you run with. And for some of those healers, the optimal gearing strategy is to stack stamina. Thus, the default AMR weights aren't wrong; they just aren't necessarily right.

-That said, for the general case, stamina is probably not worth pure-gemming. If you don't particularly need hit, it can still be a good idea to half-gem it to match a blue socket (IE: use a gem with stamina and something else you want). This is because there aren't many bosses that can consistantly hit you for over 200k repeatedly, so you probably have "enough".

-For some fights, stamina IS worth gemming if you don't mind the monetary cost. For example, against Lei Shi, parry and dodge are of zero value, and mastery's core benefit (increasing the physical damage reduction of Shield of the Righteous's 3-second buff) is made moot, both by the fact that there's no physical damage going on. (Except for maybe those elementals that spawn when she bubbles; do those do physical damage? Still, that's only a small portion if so.)

-I'm half-tempted to agree with what Ussil is saying; set the default stamina cap to 0. That said, it makes the cap useless...

-...It would probably be better to create a new "default" build that sets stamina to a lower value. My current gear was obtained by using the Control/Mastery weights, then reducing stamina's weight to 1. This allowed the optimizer to use green stamina/mastery gems in blue sockets, but only because I was already hit capped; given hit is weighted at 1.1, it would have sooner suggested hit/mastery otherwise. Keep in mind, this is only what I think, and it's 1:50 AM, and I'm tired. Take this with a grain of salt. I say this because I am inclined to believe that the default stamina always found on gear will be enough, unless you are aiming for world-firsts or something (in which case, why the hell are you taking advice from me, you know the game way better than I ever will).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
EJ simply has the same research that Theck has done, he inputs a ton on EJ. Theck's view is that stam is a Paladin's best stat, except for during farm or for lower end raiding.

I was actually talking more for DPS specs, or in general. Don't care much about tanking, just know that AMR is and always has been terrible, to the point of recommending expertise gems in red sockets.
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90 Human Paladin
13125
If you drop the stam weight to 1.3, it should actually switch over to hybrid gems for blue sockets (haste/stam, mastery/stam, etc.)

I agree that it's very subjective on how much stamina a tank will want. The only real answer is "it depends". That should probably be displayed somewhere quite visible when looking at the builds on AMR, so that people using it for their new tank know that it's not ever as simple as just blindly following the weights given.

You look at someone like Treckie (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Treckie/simple) and you can see he loves stamina. But obviously his guild pushes things a lot faster than 99% of the guilds out there. Stamina just really depends so much on what a person is doing, and what they personally feel comfortable with. It's a lot harder to math it out and make any generalized statements.
Edited by Bravehearth on 3/14/2013 12:14 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9465
If you drop the stam weight to 1.3, it should actually switch over to hybrid gems for blue sockets (haste/stam, mastery/stam, etc.)

I agree that it's very subjective on how much stamina a tank will want. The only real answer is "it depends". That should probably be displayed somewhere quite visible when looking at the builds on AMR, so that people using it for their new tank know that it's not ever as simple as just blindly following the weights given.


Pretty much exactly what I said.

Though notably, I tried using the Control/Mastery build with stam reduced to 1.3, and it's significantly different from what I currently have (the same thing, but with stam at 1.0). For one, it tells me to use expertise Serpent's Eyes (JC-special gems) when stam is 1.0, but stam Serpent's Eyes when stam is 1.3. For another, gloves and boots are enchanted with expertise and hit respectively when stam is 1.0, but both are enchanted with stam when stam is 1.3. Then, since that disrupts the vital hitcap and expcap balances, reforges change to accommodate those caps.

The overall difference is that when stam is 1.3, I have 1473 more stam (about 20k more HP) at the expense of 1.66% mastery. Hit and Exp values shift slightly, but they're very close to cap in either model. Parry and Dodge also shift slightly, but not enough to care.

...Frankly, that sounds worth it. Wait, no it doesn't.

*headdesk*

Now I see why Theck calls them "Theck's pounding headaches".

Blargh. Well, it's 2:20 AM now, and my bed is beckoning.
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