Is Mr. Robot right? [Prot]

90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
03/13/2013 11:41 PMPosted by Bravehearth
Mr. Robot is a tool, and when used properly, it does a great job.


I'll agree with this because it's true, but I don't really think you're in the right for trying to defend the Robot. Mr. AMR's PR guy here has been telling us that the stat weights they offer, baseline, are supposedly the best for the average player, when, in fact, they're really offering what is likely the best weights for bleeding-edge, heroic 25-man players - i.e., the 1~2% of players who are anything but average. It smacks of disregard for their target audience - the average player - by offering advice for top-end content to middle-end players, and also of incompetence for failing to realize the differences in what is required for middle-end players and top-end players.

This is bad because, on many occasions, people (read: average players) have come to these forums after using the Robot complaining that they have problems. They don't mention the fact that they used AMR; it's usually quite evident by what they've done to their gear - stam-stacking LFR/5-man tanks, DPS gemming expertise, DPS not capped on either hit or expertise. These are not good things for the average Paladin player because if we miss a Holy Power generator, or have it dodged/parried, we lose out on our main resource which hurts our DPS, or our survivability - be it via active mitigation SotRs, or emergency WoGs (which also goes for Ret). As Ret, with CDs running, if the initial application of ES misses, we waste an incredibly potent skill - worse, a talent - with a decently long CD.
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100 Human Paladin
13775
I'm not defending Mr. Robot so much as I'm defending the proper use of tools. I'm simply saying that the user is responsible for knowing what they are doing. Telling someone to follow what EJ has to say is JUST AS WRONG, since what EJ puts out also isn't for the average player.

Sending someone to EJ and then them trying to translate that into actually reforging and regemming their armor they will likely become frustrated with chasing their tail. That's where tools come in. You set the tool up to fit what it is you are trying to accomplish. EJ doesn't explain to you in depth of how you can shuffle stats around to min/max your hit/expertise rating, and attempting to do so manually can be quite frustrating.

I was actually talking more for DPS specs, or in general. Don't care much about tanking, just know that AMR is and always has been terrible, to the point of recommending expertise gems in red sockets.


Just ran your character through AMR, the only change is shows is reforging crit on your belt to haste instead of mastery to haste. So if AMR is terrible, it seems your own gearing must be pretty terrible also.
Edited by Bravehearth on 3/14/2013 12:43 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
Just ran your character through AMR, the only change is shows is reforging crit on your belt to haste instead of mastery to haste. So if AMR is terrible, it seems your own gearing must be pretty terrible also.

Even a stopped watch is right twice a day.

The fact that it ever in its history recommended expertise gems invalidates anything it might say in the future. Its results can't be trusted without checking against something more reliable.
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100 Human Paladin
13775
The fact that it ever in its history recommended expertise gems invalidates anything it might say in the future. Its results can't be trusted without checking against something more reliable.


So you are saying that it's impossible to ever improve on a tool? If wow has game-breaking bugs at some point in it's history, that means the game will be forever broken? Just like EJ has had incorrect information before, does that mean we can never trust anything on EJ?

Just a side note, if anyone wonders why my bracers have expertise gemmed, it's because these are my tank bracers. I share gear with my ret set, and will lock those pieces in so I don't mess with them, but rather reforge around them lol.
Edited by Bravehearth on 3/14/2013 12:49 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
Just like EJ has had incorrect information before, does that mean we can never trust anything on EJ?

EJ shows the math, you can evaluate it yourself.

03/14/2013 12:44 AMPosted by Bravehearth
So you are saying that it's impossible to ever improve on a tool?

It might be improved, doesn't matter. This is an issue of trust, which anyone who's used it has lost for it. If you don't trust the tool, doesn't matter how good it might be.
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100 Human Paladin
13775
03/14/2013 12:48 AMPosted by Elidra
EJ shows the math, you can evaluate it yourself.


And that's great. It doesn't, however, show someone how to shuffle their stats around via reforging in order to min/max them. It tells them which stats are best, but doesn't actually show them how to move their own stats around. Doing it manually and optimally would take a lot of manual calculations to get right.

Of course someone shouldn't blindly go with what any tool suggests. EJ provides the math to explain what you want to accomplish with your gear (and the reasoning), the various tools out there provide a means to realize what you wish to accomplish.
Edited by Bravehearth on 3/14/2013 12:54 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
03/13/2013 11:41 PMPosted by Bravehearth
Cayse, I normally tend to agree with you on things, but I just can't here. Mr. Robot as a tool works fine. If you read the forums and what Theck has posted there (which is based on the research he posts on his blog), the default weights use gearing that's what he finds best for heroic modes (Theck really prefers a lot of stamina).


Which is the disconnect.. what it does, what it's promoted for, it's not for people who are really into heroic content. I know what Theck does, and why he has those settings (and that he has gotten quite a few direct messages asking him about the "unusual" stamina suggestions that it gives, the current weights were actually supposed to stop it from doing that, to make it so it would match more sockets.. but it still tends to ignore a number of things that mathematically it seems like it shouldn't be ignoring), but the average person who goes there, and Keten pointed it out as well... those things just don't have any meaning for them.

Having the default settings being for heroic raiders is a lot like having your mom call you for help fixing a ding and paint chip on her car, and you hand her an mig welder, orbital grinder and an hvlp sprayer. Yeah, those are the right tools for someone who knows how to fix body damage, but they sure as hell aren't going to help your mom.

To be a good tool the default settings of the site, the settings that it goes to as soon as you load your toon up has to be settings that when they push that Optimize! button, gives them answers that are relevant to the people who aren't going to read every tooltip, who aren't brave enough to change stat weights, and honestly, who spend most of their time in LFR, if that, and make threads like "why do mobs go running away when i bubble?"

03/14/2013 12:52 AMPosted by Bravehearth
Of course someone shouldn't blindly go with what any tool suggests.


Which is pretty much what the majority of people who use the robot are going to do. Push the button, and do what it says. Why? They don't know why. Because they don't know why, which is why they're pushing that button. They don't know, and someone told them that the site can tell them what to do.

I've also yet to sim a ret and had it end up with mastery weighing higher than crit, yet the robot has always had mastery higher.
Edited by Cayse on 3/14/2013 1:04 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
I've also yet to sim a ret and had it end up with mastery weighing higher than crit, yet the robot has always had mastery higher.

Until I got a couple upgrades recently, I had mastery over crit, but it wasn't by much of a margin.
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100 Human Paladin
13775
Which is pretty much what the majority of people who use the robot are going to do. Push the button, and do what it says. Why? They don't know why. Because they don't know why.


If someone blindly followed the information provided on EJ about paladin tanks about stats, they'd come away just as confused. So based on the information on EJ, you decide how much stamina you want. That's as much depth as it goes into, which is..ding ding ding...the same thing the AMR tool is doing, you can set how much stamina you want, either via a cap, or by adjusting it's weight.

There is no right answer for a beginning tank or an experienced one. Also, one should remember than an undergeared tank, stepping into a raid that is barely within what would be considered appropriate for his gear, tends to be much like a tank pushing progression raiding. Their stamina will be naturally low due to the low ilevel of their gear compared to the content. There's a good chance they too would need to compensate by stacking some more stamina than someone that was in more appropriate gear.

There is no "best strategy" for stamina, EJ makes that quite clear, and they avoid even getting into it by just saying go with what you feel is best based on your circumstances. If a new tank read that, they might think they need to stack a bunch of stamina, or they might think they should avoid it. Based on the info on EJ they wouldn't know which to do. AMR is no different in that respect, it has to default to something.

I've also yet to sim a ret and had it end up with mastery weighing higher than crit, yet the robot has always had mastery higher.


Are you telling me you trust a tool? I thought we were just supposed to go to EJ and it would take care of everything.
Edited by Bravehearth on 3/14/2013 1:16 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
Based on the info on EJ they wouldn't know which to do. AMR is no different in that respect, it has to default to something.


EJ also caters itself more toward people who can and will think for themselves. Robot is for GIMME ANSWER.

Are you telling me you trust a tool? I thought we were just supposed to go to EJ and it would take care of everything.


I hope you're trying to be funny.
Edited by Cayse on 3/14/2013 1:23 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
13775
I hope you're trying to be funny.


Indeed :D

Although I will say that I wish more devs were working on Rawr. Simcraft needs a serious kick in the butt via competition, and I much prefer the overall design of Rawr. It's a much more powerful tool when used correctly (combining the functionality of a simulation with reforging, regemming, chanting, and scanning through all the gear you have available to optimize). Seems likely it's a case of the people working on it just getting too busy with other things. It's out of date, and really hasn't ever been kept up very well since wrath.
Edited by Bravehearth on 3/14/2013 1:31 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Paladin
11320
Hey Ashleym,
Spike damage is the most common cause of deaths in raids.

You re not a god damn pharmaceuticals company.

The problem Zoo is that you advertise yourself as a one stop shop to better optimization and many people get screwed because of it. That in turn aggravates people who know what to do and see your customers hurting our image.

You make the tanking population worse with your presence.


Its not the tool that is making the population worse its those who do not read the instructions of said tool. That's like trying to say this pencil makes me a worse speller just by being in my hand when I am the one doing the misspelling.

Or its a manufacturers fault you couldn't put that desk together when they gave you clear instructions to read to learn how to and you chose not to read them. you can't fault the manufacturer for your choices.

They do not get screwed by AMR they screw themselves by not inputting the right starting data to begin with.
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100 Human Warrior
17880
Maybe you should read the thread or go try it out, because on every setting that it uses, unless you specify your own weights, the robot advocates full out stamina. And not just in gemming, in enchants as well. That is exactly what people mean when they say stack stamina.


I'm not a fan of ARM myself, but i'll defend them a bit here. The fact is for tanks, Stam IS the most useful stat you can have until you don't need anymore of it. Point for point, its the best investment until you and your healers can keep you alive thru 2-3 big hits. After that, its all excess padding and you're going to stats like haste, mastery, dodge, parry to make the bigger hits smaller and have them happen less often.

The problem is, what you and your healers are comfortable with is going to vary a LOT from one individual to the next. Some will have healers that can drop a 350k heal on them at once, others will have healers that roll hots and throw 70-110k heals while the hots help keep up. Some have pro healers, some don't. This is simply not something a site like amr or reforge lite can take into account in its stat weightings.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13975
I'm a little shocked at the hate for AMR. Its a friggin tool, people, and the people who run it have been great about reaching out to some very smart people to continually refine it. I agree that it wasn't so great back in Cata, but they've improved it considerably since then.

I really don't know what drives the strongest anti-AMR haters. Taking a wild stab, I'd guess they are either generally anti-authority (and think that bashing AMR is somehow "sticking it to the man") or are just trying to be hipsters who are too cool for it. Its like being enraged at a slide-rule or something. What did the slide-rule ever do to you?

Its fine if people don't use it or don't like it, but the reasons people have given for not liking it have suggested they totally misunderstand what its there for. If people complained that setting the stat-weights was complicated or the interface was hard to figure out, then fine. Those would be valid complaints.

Complaining that the stat-weights for particular default settings are wrong is dumb. First, as others have noted, AMR gets some pretty sharp folks to put together their default stats. For paladin tanks, there is literally no one with more credibility for paladin tanking than Theck, and he's the one who did their paladin tanking stat weights. So, you can disagree that their settings might not work for you, given your situation. But to argue that their settings are simply *wrong*, you need to explain *why* you think they're wrong and I haven't seen anyone do that yet. Theck's been wrong before, he's not infalliable, but he's right a lot more often than he's wrong so you'd better come with a strong argument.

Second, if you don't like the default settings, you can *CHANGE* them to ones you like better. But even that's not, say, Ussil's complaint. His complaint is that, not only are the settings wrong, AMR is failing to prevent people who have no idea what they're doing from using settings that he thinks are wrong for them. Setting aside whether he's even correct (I don't think he is), that's like watching my kindergarten-age daughter try to use my calculator to answer a multiplication question and being wrong at the calculator for giving her the wrong answer. Its not the caluculator's fault she doesn't know how to multiply. How's it supposed to know she's 6? Is it supposed to somehow know she doesn't know how to multiply and teach her?

The funny thing is that I don't even really use AMR myself (I don't use a tool for reforging or picking gemming or enchants at all. Maybe I'm weird, but I enjoy sitting in front of the reforge vendor, working it out in my head. Which isn't so great if I'm in a hurry like I was last night, but its still how I prefer to do it), but I have no beef against it and the general tone of this thread kinda pissed me off.
Edited by Wrathblood on 3/14/2013 9:05 AM PDT
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I'll be honest - I use AMR still to this very day. Now like everyone else has said, though - it is primarily a tool. A tool is only as useful as the man or woman using it.

While I don't necessarily like that AMR specializes for 10- and 25-man raids nor will it do a "Simcraft"-esque simulation on your stat weights, it still is a good tool when you know how to do it right. The main thing is valuing tank stats is not easy at all, and Wrathblood can probably attest to this too.

When it comes to 10-mans, which is primarily the content I do (well... WHEN they raid... ugh), Stamina stacking isn't too necessary. Does Stamina help lesson spikes to an extent because there's more breathing room and the like? Certainly, and AMR suggesting more HP isn't necessarily an evil thing like many people point it to be. The only minor flaw it has is this - whenever I adjust my stat priority for Stamina, it's all or nothing. In general, I should be able to choose about how much Stamina I need at base (which I think has been built in now as of recent).

It's still one of the better tools when you combine other tools like Simcraft for gemming and the like. It's a matter of how effectively you use the tool. 10- and 25-man is also key to knowing how much Stamina you'll likely need in the scenario, hence why you have people like Theck who outline how important it is to time SotR and such because 25-mans give less opportunities for hiccups - the bosses hit a little too hard.
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90 Draenei Paladin
6255
Is Mr. Robot right? [Prot]
It's not right or wrong, it's what you make of a tool provided to you. Would I recommend it as a starting point? Yes. Would I take the advise as the holy gospel? No.
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90 Human Paladin
7315
You need to have enough stamina to be able to survive at least 2 hits back to back.
Stamina is far from a useless stat. Also, people tend to forget that the job of the tank isn't only to survive but also stress as less as possible the healers. Dps comes way second (thats true especially in the 25 mans). If you can survive, hold aggro and enable your healers to drop efficient slow heals on you, then you win (stamina + mastery / and or haste does that). If you drop in some deeps while doing that, then that's a huge bonus.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
14070
Do you even tank Meanor?

1. You will never need more stam than what comes on gear. You are not doing heroics this week. It is silly to have such a high default weight for stam. It is silly to gem solid cuts.

2. The best way to reduce stress on healers is by lowering incoming damage. Stamina does not lower incoming damage at all. You take more damage if you forgo tanking stats for stam. The term manasponge came about for a reason. It is not a term of endearment.

3. Aggro is something you should never need to worry about. Vengeance does that job for you. If you lose threat to a non tank then its not a gear issue.

4. While tank DPS mattering vs not mattering is an argument for another thread, "DPS" stats are most certainly important for a prot paladin. Hit, expertise, haste and mastery help with point 2 in reducing incoming damage more than even dodge or parry. Stamina does not ever help reduce incoming damage. (Keep your bloody DK comments to yourselves)

Stop telling people they need "enough" stam to not get two shot. They already have it.
Edited by Ussil on 3/14/2013 12:56 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7315
1. You will never need more stam than what comes on gear. You are not doing heroics this week. It is silly to have such a high default weight for stam. It is silly to gem solid cuts.


Stamina is great for heroic progression and people dont want to fully regem when they transition.

2. The best way to reduce stress on healers is by lowering incoming damage. Stamina does not lower incoming damage at all. You take more damage if you forgo tanking stats for stam. The term manasponge came about for a reason. It is not a term of endearment.


True, but also its true that a bigger health pool gives room for healers to cast slower spells. It also is way more forgiving when learning a fight. It's really a solid choice.

3. Aggro is something you should never need to worry about. Vengeance does that job for you. If you lose threat to a non tank then its not a gear issue.


Never said we have a problem holding aggro.

4. While tank DPS mattering vs not mattering is an argument for another thread, "DPS" stats are most certainly important for a prot paladin. Hit, expertise, haste and mastery help with point 2 in reducing incoming damage more than even dodge or parry. Stamina does not ever help reduce incoming damage. (Keep your bloody DK comments to yourselves)


Mastery isn't really a "dps" stat for protadin and mastery seems to shine more this tier tbh.

Stop telling people they need "enough" stam to not get two shot. They already have it.


Are you raiding 10 mans or 25 mans? Have you ever tried to tank a "hard" heroic w/t gemming stamina or having stamina trinkets? How did it work out for you?

03/14/2013 12:52 PMPosted by Ussil
Do you even tank Meanor?

No and i don't even lift.

P.S
I won't get into much detail here, but obviously you need to read theck's post and the rest of the protadin community posts as well.
I won't even bother to start linking you some of the top protadins out there that gem for solid stamina for their heroic progression, but i definitely suggest you do before you come on this forums and be all rude and angry /pat

Here is one of them just fyi.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Treckie/simple

Edit: And btw what works better for your raid doesn't mean that it will work as good for another. Some raids have amazing healers some don't meaning that going 0 stamina full haste (for example) might not be the slightest issue for some raid's healers but for another will. At the end of the day what matter for either case is that stamina is more "forgiving" (not the "" pls) at least for the learning curve and also, as important what your raid's skill and composition can handle better. Its as simple as that.
Edited by Meanor on 3/14/2013 2:07 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Paladin
14070
Holy !@#$. It's like you don't even read what other people post. I can't argue with you because you don't even read what I type.
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