Is Mr. Robot right? [Prot]

90 Pandaren Monk
13220
Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We worked with Theck on these stat weights. Both us and Theck from SacredDuty agree that stamina-heavy builds are better for tanks. You actually need to favor stamina more in 25 man raids than 10man raids since the bosses don't hit as hard. Also, if you are having trouble surviving, Stamina will be better. If you aren't dying, you can drop some stamina.

The amount of stamina each tank prefers is pretty individual, so set it to a level where you are no longer dying. You can do 2 things on our site: set the stat weight lower, down to 1.3 should start giving you hybrid gems. Even lower and you won't get any stamina from gems. Alternatively, you can leave stamina high and put a cap on it. This will say, "Hey, Mr. Robot, get me to 30,000 stamina, then give me other stats... with 30k stamina, I don't die."

Cayse: we have several preset stat weights you can choose from for tanking. You can choose to favor Control/Mastery, Control/Haste, and Avoidance. Perhaps you had the Mastery preset selected? Also, give me your warrior's character name and I'll see what's going on.

More resources:
How to edit stat weights: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2013/01/how-to-edit-stat-weights/
How Mr. Robot gets his stat weights: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2013/02/how-does-mr-robot-get-his-stat-weights/
Theck's blog: http://sacredduty.net/2013/03/05/5-2-protection-links-and-qa/


sorry but your wrong mister robot has been junk since 5.0 launched. ive done betetr with reforgelite and wow reforge. Even Thack said your wrong,. also your site told me to gem spirit as a TANK. brewmasters don't need spirit

thack's post: http://sacredduty.net/2013/03/17/i-can-go-make-a-blog-in-2-minutes/
Edited by Lotusblossum on 3/17/2013 12:35 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
23780
^ Such a compelling and strong argument...

Guys if you are going to tell these people they are wrong, please use some reasoning to prove why instead of mindlessly hating on them. Like our lovely person above who clearly hasn't read the post he/she quoted as well as Theck's post on the previous page.

AMR has had some kinks and bugs with stat weighs here and there but they are quick to fix it if you bring it up on their forums, and even then, if you really cared you would have found your own stat weights and known why each stat value is at that number, and used those instead of the default weights.

Then again I am on the WoW forums where some people who hate the game with a burning passion post on here from time to time, so who am I kidding trying to encourage non-hateful discussions.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
As someone who is often hyper-critical of the robot... I'm going to say I want at least a screenshot it telling a tank to gem spirit.
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100 Tauren Paladin
18990
AMR has had some kinks and bugs with stat weighs here and there but they are quick to fix it if you bring it up on their forums, and even then, if you really cared you would have found your own stat weights and known why each stat value is at that number, and used those instead of the default weights.


AMR could also use some people knowing how it works:
  • professions and talents are taken into account, see what it recomends with the base speed increase talent and without
  • it goes for the biggest increase based on weights you give it, so a solid serpent's eye in a blue or prismatic slot? might be the biggest increase even if you knock stam's weight down a bit
  • Most of the complaints I have seen seem to come from those that failed to take the prievious things into account, like Cayse pointed out that it was recommending a solid serpent's eye in the helm? That helm has a blue slot, hmmm, stam is a blue gem, right? JC gems are better then the everyday ones, right? What gem will likley be seen as the biggest increase?

    That said, for the AMR people here, one thing I'd like to see is a force socket bonuses option as there are those of us that see the bonuses as, well, freebie enchants or bonuses.
    Edited by Ujarak on 3/17/2013 2:05 PM PDT
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    90 Human Rogue
    13625
    Wait ... isn't it Theck that told everyone to gear hit/expertise/haste in the first place?

    And this guy is hating on Theck's stuff?

    Hahahahahahahahah.
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    90 Human Rogue
    13625
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We worked with Theck on these stat weights. Both us and Theck from SacredDuty agree that stamina-heavy builds are better for tanks. You actually need to favor stamina more in 25 man raids than 10man raids since the bosses don't hit as hard. Also, if you are having trouble surviving, Stamina will be better. If you aren't dying, you can drop some stamina.

    The amount of stamina each tank prefers is pretty individual, so set it to a level where you are no longer dying. You can do 2 things on our site: set the stat weight lower, down to 1.3 should start giving you hybrid gems. Even lower and you won't get any stamina from gems. Alternatively, you can leave stamina high and put a cap on it. This will say, "Hey, Mr. Robot, get me to 30,000 stamina, then give me other stats... with 30k stamina, I don't die."

    Cayse: we have several preset stat weights you can choose from for tanking. You can choose to favor Control/Mastery, Control/Haste, and Avoidance. Perhaps you had the Mastery preset selected? Also, give me your warrior's character name and I'll see what's going on.

    More resources:
    How to edit stat weights: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2013/01/how-to-edit-stat-weights/
    How Mr. Robot gets his stat weights: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2013/02/how-does-mr-robot-get-his-stat-weights/
    Theck's blog: http://sacredduty.net/2013/03/05/5-2-protection-links-and-qa/


    sorry but your wrong mister robot has been junk since 5.0 launched. ive done betetr with reforgelite and wow reforge. Even Thack said your wrong,. also your site told me to gem spirit as a TANK. brewmasters don't need spirit

    thack's post: http://sacredduty.net/2013/03/17/i-can-go-make-a-blog-in-2-minutes/


    Holy crap I'm so embarrassed. You were kidding. I thought you were serious.

    /blush
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    100 Dwarf Paladin
    14780
    Thank you Theck for you response. I won't quote the whole thing because its huge. If you haven't read Theck's post in its entirety I suggest you go do so. Some of my quotes are out of context if you haven't read his post.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8198641390?page=5#96
    alternatively
    http://sacredduty.net/2013/03/17/i-can-go-make-a-blog-in-2-minutes/

    However, the average raider hasn't cleared all of the 5.1 content. They are going into ToT significantly undergeared for even the first few bosses.
    I was under the impression ToT was tuned for 16/16 raiders. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll give you that.

    03/15/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Theck
    I'll note that if you had pulled the last few bosses of ToT in week one, you may have gotten a very different impression.
    That's half my point. The people using AMR are not pulling the last few bosses in week one. They will have been farming the first half of the bosses for gear for weeks before pulling Lei Shen.

    03/15/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Theck
    Yet looking at your armory, you seem to have reforged much of your dodge and parry into hit, expertise, and haste.
    Yet I still have more of each of those stats than you. In fact I am giving up less of each stat that you are. Now if you happen to be logged out in you stam gear that a different story. I certainly have a few pieces of stam gear and my stam trinkets but those are for the one off fights, not a baseline set. I would guess most people who go to AMR for help don't carry multiple gear sets. Having them gear for the one or two fights where stam is preferred is silly.

    2) you don't think that TDR is worth seeking, and instead gem for "smoothness" stats, but you're telling people on the forums they should be seeking TDR stats anyway. In which case you also shouldn't be giving advice.
    You know what our absolute worst TDR stats are? Hit, expertise, and haste.
    I am speaking from an exclusively prot pally view with this. My SotR is better than any of my cool downs. 50% or more reduction is pretty good for "total damage reduction" don't you think? Obviously heavy magic damage fights are different. That's why stam is very good on say Le Shi. That said I think "TDR" is and was a silly way to look at stats for tanking.

    --

    I disagree with a lot of what you say about healing but that's for the healing forums and not the point of discussion in this thread. What I can say is when I'm healing on my druid or priest, tanks heavy in stam are my least favorite to play with.

    --

    Stop telling people they already have "enough," because frankly, they don't.

    Seriously, consider this "average" tank you keep referring to. First of all, let's clear up some misconceptions.
    03/15/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Theck
    In short, the average tank is actually pretty terrible.
    On this we just disagree.

    This was a long post, but if nothing else, here's what you should take away from it. You may find that the baseline stats on AMR do not suit you very well. In most cases, that means one of two things:
    03/15/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Theck
    1) You're not running 25-man content,
    I am running 25s
    03/15/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Theck
    2) You're already at a skill or gear level that is above-average
    I would argue I'm not.

    Also note: I'm not affiliated with AMR, even if I find their tool incredibly useful in my own work. I complain about it a lot too, because I think there are areas it could be better. But I generally make suggestions to them about how to improve it rather than taking a giant dump on the tool on forums, because the latter isn't very productive. As Wrathblood said, it's like hating on a slide rule.
    I !@#$ on it yes, however when Zoopercat came in asking for tips I gave them suggestions along with my justification. If a slide rule has misprinted ink you can be sure I will hate on it and the company that made it. I feel that AMR is misprinted and steering tanks in the wrong direction. The kind of player who goes to AMR and clicks optimize doesn't necessarily know WHY it optimizes the way it does. AMR, as a tool, is inefficient and difficult to wield. It is the wrong tool for the job and I recommend people not use it. Hammer your nails with a hammer, not a wrench.

    To conclude, you bring up some very good points Theck. I disagree on some points of your general tanking strategy but obviously both our styles keep us alive through boss kills. My issue in this thread is with AMR. I will preface this statement with this. This is for prot paladin only. I have no experience using it for dps, heals or other tanks. My initial response was to a pally tank, nowhere near Lei Shen on week 1. I still maintain my original post best helps OP.

    "AMR is a clunky, confusing and cluttered tool that is aimed at players more interested in numbers than those it is advertised towards causing well meaning players to make poor decisions caused by misguided information."
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    90 Draenei Paladin
    14545

    To conclude, you bring up some very good points Theck. I disagree on some points of your general tanking strategy but obviously both our styles keep us alive through boss kills. My issue in this thread is with AMR. I will preface this statement with this. This is for prot paladin only. I have no experience using it for dps, heals or other tanks. My initial response was to a pally tank, nowhere near Lei Shen on week 1. I still maintain my original post best helps OP.

    "AMR is a clunky, confusing and cluttered tool that is aimed at players more interested in numbers than those it is advertised towards causing well meaning players to make poor decisions caused by misguided information."


    I don't really blame AMR for the current state of paladin tanking. Paladin tank gearing is very confusing now, and there are many viable options for how to gem/enchant. It isn't AMR's job to act as a tanking tutor, though. It's unreasonable to expect AMR to try to explain all of these different options. Instead, AMR has to settle on a default that will cater to the largest percentage of people.

    Ultimately your distaste for AMR boils down to the fact that the default they chose doesn't match the gearing strategy you settled on as your favorite. However plenty of arguments have been made as to why the default settings AMR uses are superior, and I say this even as a tank who gears pretty aggressively for Haste as opposed to Stamina.

    Remember that Stamina works on every fight. It's always there. Regardless of whether the fight has heavy magic damage or no magic damage, Stamina will still help you. It's a good default in that it makes you more survivable no matter what your skill level happens to be.

    Shield of the Righteous requires tight timing, and maintaining a good uptime on it requires properly prioritizing Holy Power generation. Average tanks struggle with both timing of SotR and with uptime of SotR. They forget to pop cooldowns. I've looked at logs of Heroic boss kills with paladin tanks who can't even remember to maintain Weakened Blows!

    Dropping Stamina for Haste is something advanced tanks who are comfortable with their ability to control incoming damage are going to favor. It's not an option that should be pushed on average or below average tanks. Stacking Haste means you have to be more careful about not standing in the fire. It means you have to smooth spikes with cooldowns like Divine Protection, since you have a lower margin for error when SotR isn't up.

    In short, you have to play better in order to make aggressive Haste gearing work. That's the reason why it doesn't make a great default for AMR.
    Edited by Kihra on 3/18/2013 1:57 PM PDT
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    100 Tauren Druid
    9030
    Since there's a lot of talk about WHO uses AMR, I thought I'd look it up. iLevel doesn't determine skill level, but it's at least somewhat of an indicator of the content they have been clearing.

    Below is the breakdown of iLevel for the most recent 500,000 different characters loaded onto our site. 30% are 490 or higher, and 8% are 500 or higher. I don't know how that correlates to the % of people in the entire game, but it seems like it's at least a somewhat close representation of each level of raider.

    Edit: I added another way to look at our distribution. The first way shows who has the item level or higher. The 2nd list shows the % of people that fall within each range.

    >=450: 89.73 %
    >=455: 87.95 %
    >=460: 85.66 %
    >=465: 81.78 %
    >=470: 76.68 %
    >=475: 69.26 %
    >=480: 58.81 %
    >=485: 45.53 %
    >=490: 30.32 %
    >=495: 16.61 %
    >=500: 8.19 %
    >=505: 3.57 %
    >=510: 1.31 %
    >=515: 0.31 %
    >=520: 0.02 %
    >=525: 0.00 %
    >=530: 0.00 %
    >=535: 0.00 %
    >=540: 0.00 %

    446-450: 1.50 %
    451-455: 1.86 %
    456-460: 2.53 %
    461-465: 4.16 %
    466-470: 5.44 %
    471-475: 8.11 %
    476-480: 11.00 %
    481-485: 13.70 %
    486-490: 15.40 %
    491-495: 12.66 %
    496-500: 7.54 %
    501-505: 4.01 %
    506-510: 1.94 %
    511-515: 0.84 %
    516-520: 0.19 %
    521-525: 0.01 %
    526-530: 0.00 %
    531-535: 0.00 %
    536-540: 0.00 %
    Edited by Zoopercat on 3/18/2013 4:11 PM PDT
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    100 Human Paladin
    19380

    However, the average raider hasn't cleared all of the 5.1 content. They are going into ToT significantly undergeared for even the first few bosses.
    I was under the impression ToT was tuned for 16/16 raiders. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll give you that.

    What it was tuned for is not strictly identical to "who runs this content." A lot of guilds that did not finish (or just barely finished) Terrace step right into ToT and understandably struggle with it. And in general, stamina is your go-to stat when you're undergeared for content (and I'd argue that it remains your best survivability stat up until you overgear/outskill it noticeably).

    03/18/2013 11:17 AMPosted by Ussil
    Yet looking at your armory, you seem to have reforged much of your dodge and parry into hit, expertise, and haste.
    Yet I still have more of each of those stats than you. In fact I am giving up less of each stat that you are. Now if you happen to be logged out in you stam gear that a different story. I certainly have a few pieces of stam gear and my stam trinkets but those are for the one off fights, not a baseline set. I would guess most people who go to AMR for help don't carry multiple gear sets. Having them gear for the one or two fights where stam is preferred is silly.

    In practice, stamina is better for survivability for almost every fight. The gear I log out in (as prot) is my general-purpose boss-tanking gear set. I only modify it for bosses that warrant something different (which isn't many).

    03/18/2013 11:17 AMPosted by Ussil
    2) you don't think that TDR is worth seeking, and instead gem for "smoothness" stats, but you're telling people on the forums they should be seeking TDR stats anyway. In which case you also shouldn't be giving advice.
    You know what our absolute worst TDR stats are? Hit, expertise, and haste.
    I am speaking from an exclusively prot pally view with this. My SotR is better than any of my cool downs. 50% or more reduction is pretty good for "total damage reduction" don't you think? Obviously heavy magic damage fights are different. That's why stam is very good on say Le Shi. That said I think "TDR" is and was a silly way to look at stats for tanking.


    You're contradicting yourself here. You say you gear to improve SotR to reduce your total damage taken (i.e. improve TDR), but then go on to say that TDR is silly. Which is it?

    Either way, "This seems pretty good" isn't a rigorous argument. I've performed simulations and calculations demonstrating that, without question, the time-averaged damage you take over a fight is higher in hit/exp/haste/mastery gear than it is in avoidance gear. There is absolutely no question that dodge and parry are better at reducing damage than hit/exp/haste/mastery. Remember that even without gemming exclusively for haste/mastery, SotR is already going to be >40% just from baseline. You can't attribute all 50% of that to haste and mastery.

    Haste and mastery make that damage intake smoother, by reducing the high (and low) spikes in damage taken per second. You will take more damage overall, but more consistent damage with fewer large spikes. And that's why so many tanks are choosing to go for control/haste (in addition to the raw DPS it adds). Stamina is also a smoothness stat, in that adding 10% stamina doesn't change your damage intake, but it makes all spikes about 10% smaller relative to your health pool, which is a HUGE smoothing effect. If you could run a 10% mitigation cooldown permanently, would you?

    If you disagree with those conclusions, again, you need to back it up with proof. I have pages and pages worth of blog posts presenting data and analysis, and my model and code are freely available. I've made a pretty compelling argument by showing my tools and allowing for peer input, much like I do when I submit a scientific paper for publication. So far it's withstood the scrutiny of every other theorycrafter that's looked at it (and when it hasn't, we revise the model appropriately until it does). If you are going to suggest that it's wrong, please present your own models and results so that we can scrutinize them in the same fashion. I'm happy to be proven wrong if there's a flaw in my work, but "I think X" is not compelling proof.

    03/18/2013 11:17 AMPosted by Ussil
    I disagree with a lot of what you say about healing but that's for the healing forums and not the point of discussion in this thread. What I can say is when I'm healing on my druid or priest, tanks heavy in stam are my least favorite to play with.

    You're welcome to disagree, but I don't make this stuff up, that's not how research works. I've spoken with a lot of healers, and by far the majority of them seem to disagree with you. That's what I base my analysis on, not random conjecture.

    03/18/2013 11:17 AMPosted by Ussil
    1) You're not running 25-man content,
    I am running 25s
    2) You're already at a skill or gear level that is above-average
    I would argue I'm not.


    By definition, you're above-average. You're here, on the WoW forums, discussing tank theorycrafting. That alone says that, statistically, you're better than at least 50% of the tanks out there. Because it suggests you're interested in putting in time and effort to improve your play. And that's simply not the case for a large majority of players.
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    100 Human Paladin
    19380
    Below is the breakdown of iLevel for the most recent 500,000 different characters loaded onto our site. 30% are 490 or higher, and 8% are 500 or higher. I don't know how that correlates to the % of people in the entire game, but it seems like it's at least a somewhat close representation of each level of raider.

    Thank you for those statistics Zooper. That's very interesting - it suggests that the "average" tank using your tool does not even have full 496 (i.e. normal-mode T14) gear, which is actually lower than I had expected.
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    100 Blood Elf Paladin
    20945
    Those ilvls are even lower than I expected as well and I feel kind of depressed by them.
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    100 Tauren Druid
    9030
    What I want to know now - is what those stats look like for the average wow player? Does that match up, or is the site more popular with a particular gear-level of raiders? That list also includes people's alts. I have no idea how many alts people are loading into AMR.

    Edit: I redid my post to walk through a few iLevels and do some 3rd grader math. This is by no means Theck-level of math. But I wanted to walk through a few assumptions to figure out what the average iLevel might be. And since my assuptions are listed, everyone else can agree or disagree with those assumptions. We can then refine our theories to determine the average iLevel.

    So I would assume the average player is not doing heroic content. The idea of heroic content is that only the best players can do it. That means the MAX gear level is 496, assuming they have every item they can get from the raid (and faction). So there only be a small percentage of normal-mode players that have an average iLevel of 496. Most of them will be between 483 and 496.

    So now with T15 out, the typical person will have one or two 522 items (like the new neck, or a drop from the first boss or two). Let's also assume they got lucky and have a 502 item from an LFR run. That means their average iLevel if they STARTED at 496, would now be 499.

    Now, I would assume that the average raider will have some bad luck (or they didn't finish every T14 boss / farmed T14 end bosses). That means they probably have a few 483 or 489 gear. So let's assume 25% of their items are not 496. Let's assume they have two 483 items and two 489 items. That puts their average iLevel at 493.

    Now if someone only has half of their gear from normal mode, 25% is 489 and 25% is 483, their average iLevel would be 491.

    Also, keep in mind a lot of people will be wearing a 476 trinket, like a relic of nizao. That drops your iLevel by 1.25 points.

    This doesn't factor in item upgrades, so these levels might shift up a bit.

    So, I would argue that the average raider who beat all T14 bosses, would be around 490 to 495, depending on how long they have been farming it.

    Lastly, to be honest, I would assume the average raider hasn't beaten all of the T14 bosses on normal mode yet, let alone farmed them. so that would bring the average iLevel down even more.

    I suppose some of the guild tracking sites might help us get a breakdown of what content people are doing. Then we can see if it's a similar distribution and determine what the average raider's gear level might actually be.
    Edited by Zoopercat on 3/18/2013 3:42 PM PDT
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    100 Dwarf Paladin
    14780
    Those ilvls are even lower than I expected as well and I feel kind of depressed by them.

    Yeah. I feel like I should shut up, take my ball and go home now =( I thought the average would have been easily 15-20 levels higher.
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    100 Tauren Druid
    9030
    Can any of you who think the iLevels should be higher walk through the iLevel math and assumptions you are making? We obviously disagree on some of the assumptions somewhere. Wondering what those are :)
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    100 Tauren Druid
    9030
    Here's another thing to consider:

    Mists of Pandaria has been out for 24 weeks. Let's say it took most people 2 weeks to get enough people together for raids. So they have had 22 weeks to raid bosses.

    10 bosses drop 496 gear. Here are some assumptions:

    • Each boss has a loot table of about 14 items
    • Each boss drops 2 items
    • So you have a 14.3% chance to get an item you want, assuming no duplicate items drop.


    Now, there is some mathematical way to figure out the actual chances to get an item in x number of tries. I have to do some googling to refresh my math to figure that out. In the meantime, let's assume that if you have a 1 in 7 chance to get an item, and that some items are wasted and some items you compete with other raiders on... you have a 1 in 16 chance to really get the item you want. (dear theck, please to not die inside after reading my horrible over simplified guestimation!!!)

    So to get ALL of the drops you want, let's assume you need 16 weeks of farming ALL 10 496 bosses. That means you would have had to kill all of those bosses by the 6th week of the expansion, and been farming them each week (16 times) to get all of your 496 gear.

    So I still think the average raider would not have an average iLevel of 496. I don't think the average raider killed every boss in the expansion by week 6. Or even week 16. Or even week 22! But maybe you disagree with my assumptions?? Keep in mind, they are assumptions, not facts.

    ps: I'm not trying to make any arguments as to the item level of people who use AMR. I'm just trying to figure out what a realistic average item level might be.
    Edited by Zoopercat on 3/18/2013 3:57 PM PDT
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    I feel bad... I don't even have an iLvl of 490...

    ...Iquit.jpg.
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    100 Dwarf Paladin
    14780
    03/18/2013 03:56 PMPosted by Zoopercat
    So to get ALL of the drops you want, let's assume you need 16 weeks of farming ALL 10 496 bosses.

    Don't forget valor gear, upgrades, elite protectors, coins and crafted.

    I'm just surprised your data has the 50% mark not even able to enter ToT LFR. I would have assumed the "average" raider could zone in week two when it opened, especially with a 522 neck.
    Edited by Ussil on 3/18/2013 4:37 PM PDT
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    100 Tauren Druid
    9030
    Bonus rolls - I should add that in to my napkin math for sure. They have a 15% chance to drop something, and depending on what you already have you might get a duplicate item. But that does give people 3 extra chances, at... let's assume a 7% chance (assume half of the time the item is a duplicate). So that means you could shave a week or two of farming off my estimates.

    Also, I looked up the number of people loading more than 1 character. For the sake of argument, let's assume that's always their alt. Under that assumption, roughly 22% of all characters loaded into our site are alts. 42% of characters on our site are below iLevel 480. If we assumed every alt was below 480, that leaves 20% of people's main characters loaded into our site below 480.

    Obviously, those are very generic assumptions for napkin math... but interesting nonetheless.
    Edited by Zoopercat on 3/18/2013 4:25 PM PDT
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    90 Dwarf Paladin
    12730
    03/18/2013 02:07 PMPosted by Zoopercat
    486-490: 15.40 %


    I had just been considering the problem you brought up, about trying to determine an average equipped item level based on player traffic, and thinking that the average MoP raider is likely an LFR Hero. This range is about where I was thinking the average would lie. I got lucky with a couple normal pieces from my one clear of MSV and still only just hit 490 Friday thanks to the belt from LFR; when 5.2 hit, I was 488.

    I would hazard, based not on math but on my own personal experience, that a safe estimate would probably be LFR's highest average item level plus three. While that mark would be hard to hit now, the average raider is likely to end up around that mark (+/-3) come mid-tier when it would be most important. If Blizzard brings back the upgrade system, increase the variance to +6/-3.
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