ToT for 2-Night guilds

90 Undead Warlock
This is not necessarily a protest or complaint. Just asking Blizzard to keep in mind that not all guilds raid 12 / 16 / 20 hours per week. Fans asked for a grand scaled instance, and you gave that, which is cool. But the combination of the size, the seemingly crazy difficulty of the trash pulls, and the number of bosses - that package all together - makes this a very difficult raid tier to manage for those of us who run less than 10 hours per week.

In the future, I feel if we have these types of instances that some form of gating would be help prevent guilds with a limited schedule from becoming too discouraged. If not by wing (I know that is contentious), then maybe a 2 week period prior to heroics being unlocked.

T14 was really nice because there was a natural "gating" created by the step-up between MSV and HoF/Terrace. I really liked that model. Totally agree that every tier should be different and it's okay to have a big mega instance. But doing it with no throttle and then throwing in the most time consuming and difficult trash that I've ever seen in a WoW raid.. that was kind of overboard.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
i agree our guild raids 3 times a week 3-4h each the 2nd trash pack aafter first boss alone is 30mins to 1h depending if you !@#$ up and pull 2.

horridon is more of a gate in 10 but 25s can just do him wiith no issues as whereever raid stands as 6 healers is massive on a fight designed for only 3-4 on 25
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97 Undead Warlock
Honestly they shouldn't have to slow down the rest of the world just so 2day/week guilds can be competitive as well.

If I were you I would just accept that I'm clearing most of heroic in 2days/week and say forget about progression races. Or you could go by some other metric such as average number of wipes before kill.

For the record, we run about 7-10 hours per week (mostly 2 days, about once a month or so we'll run 3), so I know exactly where you're coming from. We didn't get very far into heroics last tier just because we would have one bad night on heroic progression and get stuck for another week. However, I'm happy to be doing what I can with the time I have, beats raiding 3-4 days anytime.
Edited by Captnronn on 3/12/2013 10:37 AM PDT
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90 Undead Warlock
I'm fine with what we do in the time we have. I guess I'm just asking the question - why is it that introducing the biggest raid instance in the past two expansions the perfect time to introduce the most time consuming trash the game has ever seen? I don't follow the logic unless the explicit goal was to create a much bigger divide between the 20+ hour guilds and the rest.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
What would you suggest be a suitable amount of time to be spent on trash in between each boss? Would a TotC model be better?
Should the amount of time between each bosses be the same, or should the time spent be staggered?

Personally, I've found this trash to be enjoyable (very much unlike the trash prior Kael'thas when it was on a 45min respawn timer). It provides a nice break in between drilling away at raid bosses.

As your gear and knowledge on each trash pack improves, you will get faster at clearing it. This content doesn't seem like it was supposed to last the average player 2 or 3 weeks.

Edit: We raid 2 or 3 times a week, 2 to 2.5h each session and haven't found the trash to be such a problem that it has become a cause for concern.
Edited by Envien on 3/12/2013 10:42 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
I'm fine with what we do in the time we have. I guess I'm just asking the question - why is it that introducing the biggest raid instance in the past two expansions the perfect time to introduce the most time consuming trash the game has ever seen? I don't follow the logic unless the explicit goal was to create a much bigger divide between the 20+ hour guilds and the rest.

Because the raid is going to last 6+ months.

I'm also amused that you're supposedly a 10 hour a week guild who has 8 bosses dead already and are worried about falling behind others.
Edited by Firepit on 3/12/2013 11:34 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
I've seen some groups with very limited time have some success sharing their lockouts with a lower-progression raid. It takes a slightly flexible schedule, because you have to switch the order a couple times over the course of the tier, but a mutually-beneficial arrangement is possible.

Extending lockouts can also be effective.
Edited by Kaels on 3/12/2013 10:58 AM PDT
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100 Troll Warlock
Arbitrary gating (only X bosses are available until after Y date) is a horrible design. One of the primary currencies of an MMO is time. Invest more of it and you will reap more rewards. That's the nature of the genre and not something that can really be changed without gutting a core element of the game's design.

Game design isn't about gauranteeing an equality of outcome so much as providing an equality of oppurtunity. You have that now. Here are the bosses for this tier. Go kill them. You have the some oppurtunity as everyone else. You chose how you want to go about it.
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100 Gnome Mage
I saw a thread on here yesterday about this. A player suggested that you rotate lockout extensions every other week.
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90 Undead Warrior
my progression is behind yours and we raid 7.5 hours per week, but i'm not concerned at all. the trash is certainly annoying, but not that hard once you learn how it works. otherwise, raid more if you want to be ranked higher. the fact that you are even thinking about the "gap" between your guild and those that raid twice as much as you is really weird.
Edited by Moresunders on 3/12/2013 11:17 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
As someone who also comes from a 2 night a week raiding guild, the only problem is in these first few weeks while we learn the fights. Once the fights and learned (and in this case, trash) things will come together and take much less time. We were only able to down 6 bosses this week due to various reasons, but I am sure we can down all 6 of those bosses within 2-3 hours including trash at this point, leaving plenty of time for progression.

Yes, it sucks that we are starting on heroic bosses later than usual, but its a small price to pay to raid on a more casual schedule. Then again, if your guild preforms well enough, time won't be a major issue to begin with.

...I do admit though that the trash is annoying as hell. >.>
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100 Orc Shaman
For casual players lfr is always an option as it takes nearly no time to clear!
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90 Draenei Paladin
We only get about 6 hrs in during a good week and progression is entirely possible. It is slower because pulls are limited the more you get on farm but you still get there at the end of the day. As you near the final boss the decision to extend the lockout will have to be made.
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90 Tauren Shaman
I think lockout extensions are a bad idea. Regular players would get annoyed at having to wait 2 weeks to go again.
The most logical is what they did with Blackrock Spire in beta. They split it into 3 instances. BRD, LBRS, and UBRS. With trash respawn times making a deep in boss wipe a complete nightmare, they made a way of section the content on a difficulty scale.
Personally I like the portal Idea of once you clean to X boss you can zone back a portal to that point. Bypass the run and the trash. However if you want to clear it for recipes and rare trash drops, be their guest.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
You do know you can extend your lockouts, right? Yes, you'll still have to clear trash before the current boss, but it'll save a lot of time.

For what it's worth, I like the trash here so far. It's fun to fight trash that actually has a chance of killing you if you mess up; it feels like you're really defeating guardians of the ToT, rather than just some guys who happened to be wandering through it. Though MSV trash was nicer in that you could do the trash pulls while loot was being done and not worry about missing anything. And I may feel differently a month or two from now after we've been through it a bunch more times.
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90 Orc Warlock
As someone who raids 6 hours per week, I don't agree with the OP. I wouldn't want the game designed around my group in particular. Because you can extend lockouts, you don't have to lose progress. I prefer a bigger instance with interesting trash and many epic bosses much more than a small instance with mindless AoE trash and only a few bosses.
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90 Human Priest
First off, I don't want anything gated or held up for other guilds with more time. But.

The trash should be halved or have its health nerfed hard. We only have about 7 hours a week to raid it's massively frustrating to spend 30min(or more if you pull 2) between the first and second boss on horribly tedious trash. Trash that seems to have been designed with no purpose other than to eat up time.

I think the trash fits wonderfully with the raid, are well designed and could be fun but not when we are trying to get to the next boss to get a few pulls in before we run out of time for the night. I don't raid to play frogger.

If you want to spend a great deal of time on interesting trash packs, pulls and environment's then you should make a raid version of Trove the the Thunder King with keys off boss pulls. Because it might make it an enjoyable event as it is now I already dread having to do it again this week. Let alone how I will feel 6 weeks from now.
Edited by Rakki on 3/12/2013 11:43 AM PDT
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100 Orc Hunter
Looking at your gear, you definitely have enough gear to down the full instance, maybe not in two nights, but then again. It is a new instance, so there is hardly any guides/strategy's for the fights, and not to mention you haven't experienced them yet. Myself for example, we got 9/12 bosses down this week in a 4 day week, of 7-11 (tues-thurs) and 8-11(monday). So unless you have full 16/16H last patch and are expecting to raid 20 hours the first week of a new patch, you can't really expect to down everything in 1 week. It's just logical to realize that.
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90 Troll Hunter
These guys went 11/12 their first week

The problem isn't how often you raid, it's how effectively you raid.
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