[Ret] And the state of burstvsconsistant

97 Blood Elf Paladin
8990
Hello. I'm not one of the best Rets out there (Though I would like to think I represent the every man player. The average.) And I've been Ret consistantly since WOTLK when I started playing, and I can't help but think that perhaps that was when Ret was at it's best for it's rotation and damage. Of course this could be rose tinted goggles as well.

Regardless. The model Ret is under now seems to be that we as a player base 'enjoy' burst. I can't speak for all, so that is why I make this thread. However. I don't wish this to become a "Petition to change" or anything of that sort. I am hoping that this thread will work to bring the united voice of Retribution paladins together to agree if burst is something we want collectivly, or if it is something we would like to make optional.

On a personal flavour, I don't think burst is where Ret, nor any class should rely on dps, it could lead to too many variables, for example I personally find that I like to lean off some of my cooldowns, such as Avenging wrath, for certain moments, save the start of a pull, if I had to blow it no matter what just to do the same damage as say, Bob the arms warrior to my right, then I don't think it's a cooldown anymore, it's just apart of my rotation, albeit it's a button i only press every 2 minutes (Or three if theres 1 minute left on ancient kings). I don't find that fun.

I'm thinking there is room for compromise. Perhaps changing up the current glyph for Avenging wrath, making it a ret only glyph, and changing it's function could work. Giving AV a passive instead, to give you half of it's effect on a constant basis (Rough estimate on how it may bring ret to a more consistant dps, rather then burst), but the passive is lost for 1 minute after triggering AV (To give you the burst you want, but making you think about casting it).

What do you as the community think of this? What changes would you want to see to our kit to make our dps more consistant, or do you think Ret is fine as a burst class?

Let us hope that this will 'unify' our voice, and if something needs to be done, it can be.

Though then again this is the internet where opinions are often labeled as hard fact... Heres hoping.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15495
Ret's sustained DPS is perfectly fine once you've got enough gear (like every other class) and have enough experience with the rotation. The fact that we have the ability to dish out insane burst is just a bonus.

As a class we really don't need a whole lot of changing; in my opinion we are sitting reasonably pretty in 5.2.

The only real change I want to see is Divine Purpose being baseline. Ret always will be the original whack-a-mole spec in my eyes (and you can't say getting 5 free templar's verdict procs in a row isn't insanely satisfying).

03/21/2013 01:30 AMPosted by Arlyyn
The model Ret is under now seems to be that we as a player base 'enjoy' burst.


Trust me, if you don't enjoy hitting 400k+ at the start of Sha of Fear you've got something wrong with you.

On a completely unrelated note, if that is your main paladin the reason your sustained DPS is low is because your gear is horridon.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
03/21/2013 01:30 AMPosted by Arlyyn
I personally find that I like to lean off some of my cooldowns, such as Avenging wrath, for certain moments, save the start of a pull


That is, essentially, how our burst should be handled. I don't even pop on pull with Jin'rokh, but rather wait for first puddle and laugh at all the other people that blew everything on pull.

03/21/2013 01:30 AMPosted by Arlyyn
What do you as the community think of this?


I think some classes need to be burst classes, and that others need to be sustained classes. It breeds variety, allows for more individualized playstyles even within the broad confines of "burst spec" and "sustained spec."

On a completely unrelated note, if that is your main paladin the reason your sustained DPS is low is because your gear is horridon.


Agreed. No gems, scant enchants, excessive hit. Lots can be done with your current gear to bring up your sustained (and your burst), Arlyyn.
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97 Blood Elf Paladin
8990
My gear is bad because I'm still gearing up, after a bit of a hiatus :3.
The hit is bare minimum despite it looking like an over dose, I'll better be able to align my views for the every-man ret when I bring my gear further into line. I'm in no ways trying to say that Ret is bad, I think that as far as DPS numbers go, Ret is pretty good, the question being brought to the table is if the manner of which we get these numbers should change or not. I know in the long run it dosen't effect PVE too much, but I also wonder about PVP (I haven't pvp'd as ret for a long while now)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
03/21/2013 12:40 PMPosted by Arlyyn
The hit is bare minimum

7.5 is the bare minimum and absolute maximum.
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3 Blood Elf Paladin
0
POP cooldowns play for 20 seconds ...auto attack AFK, run down to the garage take a few puffs grab a drink come back a minute or two later. Rinse repeat
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90 Tauren Paladin
10640
POP cooldowns play for 20 seconds ...auto attack AFK, run down to the garage take a few puffs grab a drink come back a minute or two later. Rinse repeat

And your DPS will suck. Congrats!
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3 Blood Elf Paladin
0
POP cooldowns play for 20 seconds ...auto attack AFK, run down to the garage take a few puffs grab a drink come back a minute or two later. Rinse repeat

And your DPS will suck. Congrats!


Another 25,000 below the top dps wont change much
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97 Blood Elf Paladin
8990
POP cooldowns play for 20 seconds ...auto attack AFK, run down to the garage take a few puffs grab a drink come back a minute or two later. Rinse repeat

And your DPS will suck. Congrats!


Another 25,000 below the top dps wont change much


This might be acceptable in LFR, but I don't think you'll be getting any main slots anytime soon.

I understand that there should be differences in how a DPS class/specc opperates, but seeming Ret is nailed into being the only DPS specc for the class, would it be too much of a request to ask for a choice? Even if it's in the form of a glyph?

Burst can be a double edged sword, I find myself being quite shot in the foot when i'm doing dailies, that is untill I bump into a big mob with 1.2 or more million hp to it, and I say "Phew, I can get through this faster"

Those words should state my disposition on burst only spec's. I like the rotation of Ret, I think it's the closest it's been to WOTLK without having Divine Storm (I understand it's position and won't ask for it to return, I don't think we'll be seeing that), I just hope that burst isn't the prequisite forever
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
8920
Ret's DPS is very gear dependent. Once you have decent gear and are fully gemmed/enchanted, your DPS should be fine. We have a little too punishing of a ramp up time for burst AoE, but other than that, it's not bad.

I think our sustained DPS in PVP is relatively fine as well. I think the main issue is Ret's trying to solo healers, which shouldn't be easy anyway. When you look at some of the tools other melees have for taking down healers, it's easy to see why a lot of people think this. We don't have a Mortal Strike debuff, and we only have one stun on a long cd. Compared to DK's Necrotic Striking, Rogues CC chains, and all the Specs that bring that 25% healing debuff, we're fighting an uphill battle against healers. We more than make up for this with our powerful group utility and heals, but it's still harder to kill those healers.

I have this theory that a lot of Ret player's visually ignore mastery when looking at their numbers. Our Templar's Verdict and Hammer of Wrath's seem lower than they should when they crit, because the mastery damage just kinda floats around unnoticed. Your 150k Templar's Verdict doesn't register as actually being over 200k, but it is. ¬_¬
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
03/21/2013 04:36 PMPosted by Arlyyn
Burst can be a double edged sword, I find myself being quite shot in the foot when i'm doing dailies, that is untill I bump into a big mob with 1.2 or more million hp to it, and I say "Phew, I can get through this faster"


When I'm doing dailies, I don't use my cooldowns unless things are about to hit the fan. Now, at your gear level, I can see that being different, but when I do dailies I take the opportunity to practice my situational awareness. The Stage 2 dailies, I think, that opened up the Zandalari Colossus as a possible daily, and even the older Stage 1 cap dailies, I just take my time and hone the GTFOF skills that have guild PuGs asking me left and right if I'd be interested in a dedicated raid spot.

It also helps that I'm capable of competing with their DPS, despite my LFR Hero gear. But I'd not be able to put up the numbers if I couldn't handle mechanics.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10640
Another 25,000 below the top dps wont change much

People nitpick at 1% differences, and you're not concerned with 20%+? Well, okay then.

03/21/2013 04:36 PMPosted by Arlyyn
Burst can be a double edged sword, I find myself being quite shot in the foot when i'm doing dailies, that is untill I bump into a big mob with 1.2 or more million hp to it, and I say "Phew, I can get through this faster"

Ret kills quest mobs very fast. Hell, I can kill mobs on the Isle of Thunder so fast (without cooldowns) that I don't even care about how many I pull anymore. Big group of saurok? Pull them all! They'll die long before I do.

Like I said in another thread, burst isn't really a double-edged sword. Burst is good. Burst and sustained even out on long fights, but burst wins on short fights whereas sustained never shines on anything. Ret's strong burst and decent sustained are a powerful combination, moreso than a lot of people realize.
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100 Human Paladin
5510
I enjoy burst, but it sucks when you have to wait for a long CD like GAOK to get your full potential. Wouldn't mind seeing that rolled partially into overall damage (TV?) and wings rather that used as a 5 min burst cd.
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