Pally VS DK a L2P issue?

90 Human Paladin
3555
I just fought a geared enough DK and he just wiped me - many times over. I can hold my own until at some point, he kills his minion and regenerates his Stamina - at this point, all my attacks aren't doing anything to him - and I'm also out of defensive CD (forbearance) so I have nothing to throw at him, or to defend myself.

What am I doing wrong here?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10580
Looks like a bad case of RET.

Take 20000 PvP dailies for conquest cap and call me next season
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90 Human Paladin
3555
? I'm not sure I understand...
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90 Orc Death Knight
16325
Well if he takes death pact you should be able to kill him every time, assuming equal skill and gear.

If he turtles in BP with conversion you massively need to outplay them to actually kill them but it should still be doable.

1v1 really isn't balanced but paladins have the most success when they kite DKs with BoG and just keep healing themselves. Only go in when you have CDs and always be ready to run away again. With emancipate and double freedom it's fairly easy to keep a DK snared. An equal skilled ret paladin pre-patch would usually kill a DK.

With conversion in the mix I don't think they are ever going to kill you unless you mess up but you probably aren't going to kill them if they play properly.
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90 Human Paladin
3555
He was pretty good, he used the double death grip (twice over) to keep me close.

How it breaks down is he stuns me and blows his cds, which cause me to do 1 of two things - trinket out, or bubble. I choose the trinket and counter attack with a AOE stun (disorient his minion as well as him) and blow my cds. He'll pop his bubble and I'll kite around until time runs out and then counter attack.

By this time he'll burts me down again and I'll be forced to bubble- to which he responds by refilling his health from 20% to 100%. and I'm at less than half.

Is it normally such a tough class to counter? I know not all battles are going to be an even 1vs1, but it almost seems as impossible as battling a Spriest or a Mage.
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90 Orc Death Knight
16325
Just keep kiting. DKs are incredibly slow and have almost zero mobility. When they grip once you might as well just stay in for 3 seconds because he's just going to grip again if you try to run immediately.

If he stuns you and pops CDs trinket and just kite. If he stuns you and doesn't pop CDs just sit in the stun and wait for it to wear off (ideally). Stun them and see how they react to it. If they PvP trinket/IBF just continue kiting.

Burden of guilt paired with long arm and selfless healer are pretty amazing. They can't possible keep you snared and dispel you enough to stop you from healing or gaining distances (as CoI/icy touch dispel compete for resources). Just do range damage with judgment, exo and keep yourself topped off as much as possible.

With all CDs you can stand toe to toe with one but your results may vary. If you just kite force him to make mistakes (by popping CDs) you will be topped off with CDs ready to go. Once you see an opportunity to strike (you're topped off, have lots of holy power and he has blown AMS/IBF) pop your CDs and blow him up. If it looks like you're losing ground just start kiting him again and spend your GCDs removing snares/healing (you can usually tell how things are going to go about half way through your CDs). You should have wings and probably HA still up so it's pretty simple to get yourself back up while kiting. If it looks good just commit to the kill and stay in.
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90 Human Paladin
3555
So you recommend Burden of Guilt over Fist of Justice? I'll try that instead, and see If I can put some distance between me and them!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
i tried dueling a DK the other day using FoJ and Divine Purpose and got smashed. felt kinda stupid afterwards for not switching to Holy Avenger. as for Grom's advice on BoG, i've had the same experience except in 2's. i run double DPS (play with a warlock) and i couldn't survive the DK's pressure until i took BoG and made him my b!tch

i'd like to try dueling a decent DK again sometime soon. DK seems far less squishy in 5.2, but i've been too lazy so far to find out why (gotta research Conversion and whatnot)

p.s. necrotic strike opop :o)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Is it normally such a tough class to counter? I know not all battles are going to be an even 1vs1, but it almost seems as impossible as battling a Spriest or a Mage.

ret seems very weak in 1v1 this xpac. maybe other rets have had a different experience /shrug
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90 Human Paladin
3555
I'm going to take everyone's advice and try that - I've already been convinced to switch from Eternal Flame to Selfless healer (which is awesome) and now I think I'll try the switch to burden - it should help me close the gap on casters as well.
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90 Human Paladin
3555
03/21/2013 01:24 PMPosted by Hafleur
Is it normally such a tough class to counter? I know not all battles are going to be an even 1vs1, but it almost seems as impossible as battling a Spriest or a Mage.

ret seems very weak in 1v1 this xpac. maybe other rets have had a different experience /shrug


I can run toe to toe with Warriors, Hunters Monks Rogues Druids Shammys etc, but Castor classes and this Particular DK have me scratching my head.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8355
I had a DK take me by surprise this past Tuesday as well, not too sure what happened. I got into a 1 vs 1 with him in Arena when both our partners died, I had managed to get my life back to full while taking him down to about 40%, mostly though pillar humping and self heals. I got cocky and rushed him for the kill. Before I could blink he was back at full life and I was eating dirt.

I didn't even check the combat log so I don't have a clue what he did. I was kicking myself for not waiting on my CDs, which would have been up in about 40 seconds anyway. Won't be taking DKs as lightly now.
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90 Human Paladin
3555
I had a DK take me by surprise this past Tuesday as well, not too sure what happened. I got into a 1 vs 1 with him in Arena when both our partners died, I had managed to get my life back to full while taking him down to about 40%, mostly though pillar humping and self heals. I got cocky and rushed him for the kill. Before I could blink he was back at full life and I was eating dirt.

I didn't even check the combat log so I don't have a clue what he did. I was kicking myself for not waiting on my CDs, which would have been up in about 40 seconds anyway. Won't be taking DKs as lightly now.


Same issue here, I never seen anything like it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8355
I should have checked my log, kicking myself now.

I haven't played my DK since Cata, so I'm not too sure what their whole deal is now. I don't remember DK's being super bursty during Cata, except for Unholy poping Frenzy/super ghoul/Gargoyle all at once. Frost was really good sustained damage back then, but could take you by surprise with a couple lucky Killing Machine procs back to back. I mainly stuck to Master Frost spec back then, Obliterate was trash back then.

Any DK players got any idea what it may be? I've only read about conversion this patch, which I personally haven't had a problem with.
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90 Orc Death Knight
16325
It's most likely conversion. I wouldn't say it's easy but someone with conversion (which is hard to burst through 1v1 or on 2s) isn't going to be as easy to take down. They buffed it considerably. It's essentially a second wind we can activate at anytime with the cost of 5 RP per second. Which seems like a lot but if you're getting snared constantly the DK 2 piece fuels a lot of this, as does AMS at proper moments.

It will be really long and drawn out if a DK turtles down and takes this route. I don't think they can effectively kill you if you play really conservatively, but you probably won't kill one who plays pristine either. A DK playing like this is going to do to you what I explained you should due to him, he's going to wait for you to pop CDs, turtle and try to outlast your CDs by breaking some of it up with stuns/popping conversion.

Typically fist of justice is the go to talent, but in solo plays or regular BGs burden of guilt can be an attractive option. Burden depending on what you're playing can be incredibly strong in 2s as well. DKs have 3 ways to get out of stuns and 2s games really aren't going to last long enough where you're going to make him sit in a stun (well some do).
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90 Draenei Paladin
6175
I have a few tips for dueling DK's

Glyph turn evil. Fear their pets and fear them when they pop lichborne to stop them from self healing. Fear Gary if you are fighting an Unholy dk

use cleanse on cooldown. Unholy diseases hit hard and you can cleanse them off forcing him to waste GCDs reapplying them. Frost diseases dont hit as hard, but cleansing them off forces him to reapply them because Obliterate hits 12.5% harder for each disease applied.

kite kite kite

use your selfless healer procs as soon as they get to 3 (2 even) because a DK can wipe them with Icy touch dispell.

wog often to keep the necrotics from stacking. even if you are at 75-80% wog, because he will wait to burst you when he has necro stacked up and you wont be able to heal through it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8355
I haven't had an issue with killing a DK, I'm wondering how one took me from 100% to dead in about 5 seconds. Just not sure what cool downs they have this expansion, or what burst tactics they use. I just didn't expect it, I died like Deep Freeze fast.
Edited by Andhar on 3/22/2013 12:16 AM PDT
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When the plan is to kite another melee class, as a melee class, you know that your class is just all flucked up.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
and now I think I'll try the switch to burden - it should help me close the gap on casters as well.

my advice was only for duels really. when i do a random bg by myself, i use FoJ. in 3's, FoJ is almost always better. some people say BoG is better for RBG's...not sure on that myself, but i can see where they're coming from

I can run toe to toe with Warriors, Hunters Monks Rogues Druids Shammys etc, but Castor classes and this Particular DK have me scratching my head.

warrior, yes. WW, probably. not sure about feral and enhance. a good rogue should burst the hell out of you in the opener and then ruin your attempts to kite with shuriken toss. destro will obliterate you and so too will a mage most likely

i don't think ret stands a chance against a BM hunter w/ all his CD's up
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