Question about LOTR, expert needed

55 Draenei Death Knight
470
So in the movie there was a scene lighting something called the "Beacon of Amo Dean" for those that read the book, what was the significance of that? I mean even though it's a cool scene it really didn't do anything major.
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85 Night Elf Druid
1380
Its a warning beacon.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Amon_D%C3%AEn

"Amon Dîn was the first and possibly the oldest of the seven Warning beacons of Gondor and is located between the Drúadan Forest and the Grey Wood. It was originally used as a fortified position of the city of Minas Tirith keeping watch over north Ithilien and Dagorlad. At the siege of Gondor, Amon Dîn was the second beacon to be lit. "
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55 Draenei Death Knight
470
Ok warning for what? Didn't they already know that suron was coming to crush gondor? I me. The man did just attack helms deeps and Aragon pretty much was their asking for help so wasnt lighting the beacon redundant?
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90 Draenei Shaman
0
It was built after Sauron was defeated the first time. Ostensibly it was to keep watch over areas remote from Minas Tirith and in close proximity to the approaches to Mordor...you know, just in case.

Sauron wasn't directly responsible for the attack on Helm's Deep. That was Saruman. How much under Sauron's influence he was is debatable, but it was his show.

If I recall correctly, the beacons were lit by Gandalf's order to warn the Rohirim that Gondor was in desperate need of their services. Aragorn already knew this in a general way, but...timing. Once seen, you knew Minas Tirith was under siege and it was time to MOVE.
Edited by Rashadril on 3/22/2013 9:22 AM PDT
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55 Draenei Death Knight
470
Ok so wasn't Aragon alreay telling and pleading with theoden to move? Would he really have let Gondor burn and the world end if the beacon wasn't lit? I thought wormtail death got rid of h is poor judgement?

Aragon: these orcs were sent by suramaun who are in league with sauron.

Gandalf : its true

Aragon: he will smash gondor next if you don't send aid!

Theoden: I ain't seen no beacon lit!

Isn't that just kind of stupid for such a wise king?
Edited by Crappytank on 3/22/2013 9:32 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Rogue
14955
Isn't that just kind of stupid for such a wise king?

The movie kind of added that bit in for drama I guess, in the books Theoden never considered abandoning Gondor. He started marching to Gondor as soon as he took care of Saruman.
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55 Draenei Death Knight
470
03/22/2013 11:28 AMPosted by Nunepi
Isn't that just kind of stupid for such a wise king?

The movie kind of added that bit in for drama I guess, in the books Theoden never considered abandoning Gondor. He started marching to Gondor as soon as he took care of Saruman.


So in the books there was no need for the beacon to be lit? Or was it lit anyway even though he was making his way there? So did the movies add significance to a scene that had none? Kind of like bkw the elves came to helms deep?
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90 Gnome Rogue
14955
03/22/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Crappytank
So in the books there was no need for the beacon to be lit? Or was it lit anyway even though he was making his way there?

Pretty much. Gandalf and Pippin saw the beacons lit on their way to Gondor, but I don't recall the Riders ever paying attention to them, since they were going anyway. If I remember right, Gondor sent 2 riders to Rohan carrying a black arrow that was supposed to signify a summons, but as Rohan was already mustering and getting ready to ride, even the arrow was unneeded.
So did the movies add significance to a scene that had none? Kind of like bkw the elves came to helms deep?

Pretty much again 8) But I will admit I liked the beacon lighting scene in the movie anyway.

03/22/2013 09:32 AMPosted by Crappytank
Theoden: I ain't seen no beacon lit!

Just wanted to say how great this was 8)
Edited by Nunepi on 3/22/2013 3:13 PM PDT
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55 Draenei Death Knight
470
Thanks for the answers! XD So as I thought the cool moment had no real meaning behind it. All this time I thought it was magic or something... XD
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In the books I believe the beacons of Gondor were described more as towers as well ... not just a pile of oil-soaked logs.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15665
Ok warning for what? Didn't they already know that suron was coming to crush gondor? I me. The man did just attack helms deeps and Aragon pretty much was their asking for help so wasnt lighting the beacon redundant?


Think of it like a medieval %%@!#!@* whistle, it was basically their way way of saying we're being screwed now send help immediately, it's not like they had cell phones to just call them. And this wasn't as flushed out as in the book but there was some serious debate about whether rohan was even going to help them at all even after the beacons were lit.

From the overall plot perspective maybe they weren't super important but they were a nice touch that tied the story together.
Edited by Ziryus on 3/27/2013 2:15 PM PDT
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55 Draenei Death Knight
470
I thought nunpi said they were already heading there and so the whole issue was a non point?

Second. Are rohan people stronger the gondor? The rohan peolle by themsleves took on suler orcs then came and was kicking the crap out of the regular orcs at minas tiras.
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90 Gnome Rogue
14955
I thought nunpi said they were already heading there and so the whole issue was a non point?

If you mean
there was some serious debate about whether rohan was even going to help them at all even after the beacons were lit.

I think he is referring to Gondor debating among themselves if Rohan was going to come, not Rohan debating if they should go. Gondor had sent the two riders with the arrow to summon Rohan, but the riders were killed on their way back, so Gondor had no way of knowing if Rohan was on the way.

Second. Are rohan people stronger the gondor? The rohan peolle by themsleves took on suler orcs then came and was kicking the crap out of the regular orcs at minas tiras.

It would depend on where they fought. Rohan had the better horsemen, so on a big open field Rohan would probably be stronger. But Gondor could build better strongholds, so fighting from a fortified position, Gondor would be stronger. I believe Helms Deep was built by people of Gondor years and years before the people of Rohan moved into the area, so it could be said Rohan only beat the bigger orcs with the help of Gondor 8)
Edited by Nunepi on 4/1/2013 8:20 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
7460
They lit the beacons to call for aid from Rohan. Yes, they did know Sauron was marching on Gondor, but they didn't know how big a force he was sending, so when Gondor lit the beacon, and the subsequent beacons, that meant !@#$ was getting real and they needed help.
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55 Draenei Death Knight
470
So I just saw the hobbits and need a few more clarification.

1. How did gimli think Moria was still standing when in the hobbit the dwarves of erebor was shown that they knew the orcs lived there?

2. What did elrond the elf means 400 years of peace? wasn't sauron defeated thousand of years ago?

3. Aragon was said to be islidur heir and from lotr, from what I saw in the movie islidur was the last king and then the regent took over. Upon further studies, there were more kings after islidur, so why not one of those many kings heir but islidur.

4. How and why did the line get broken in the first place?

5. Would we see all the other wizard in the hobbits or were they just reference?

6. Clearly sauron was morgorth lieutenant, so how were the 3 elf lord, 7 dwarf lord, and 9 kings of men stupid enough to fall for his trick?
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90 Gnome Rogue
14955
1. How did gimli think Moria was still standing when in the hobbit the dwarves of erebor was shown that they knew the orcs lived there?

The dwarves had all but wiped out the orcs in the misty mountains in the war the Hobbit showed. The dwarves sacked the orc strongholds one by one in the mountains saving Moria for last. They didn't think orcs would multiply that fast to be a force in the area for a long time.

2. What did elrond the elf means 400 years of peace? wasn't sauron defeated thousand of years ago?

I don't remember this line in the movie, but if I had to take a guess, Elrond was referring to the last time orcs invaded Eriador. I think it was around 400 years before that orcs tried to invade the shire. Gandalf gave a short version of the story with his creation of golf explanation 8)

3. Aragon was said to be islidur heir and from lotr, from what I saw in the movie islidur was the last king and then the regent took over. Upon further studies, there were more kings after isildur, so why not one of those many kings heir but islidur.

There is quite a large gap in between Isildur dying and the last king. Gondor belonged to the descendants of Anarion, Isildur's brother. The last king of Gondor rode out to fight the witch king, but had no sons of his own to take over if something happened to him. The witch king captured him, but nobody in Gondor saw it happen, so they couldn't say they knew 100% the king was dead, which is why the regent took over, to wait until the king came back even though everybody already suspected that would never happen.

Isildur's line had the north kingdom Arnor, and after the last king in south vanished, one of the northern kings tried to claim Gondor, but the people of Gondor wouldn't allow it since he was not descended from Anarion. By the time Aragorn rolled around, nobody really cared anymore if he wasn't part of Anarion's line.

4. How and why did the line get broken in the first place?

See answer for question 3 )

5. Would we see all the other wizard in the hobbits or were they just reference?

Will never see the other 2. They went into the far east and are never heard from again.

6. Clearly sauron was morgorth lieutenant, so how were the 3 elf lord, 7 dwarf lord, and 9 kings of men stupid enough to fall for his trick?

Back when the rings were being made, Sauron had enough power to make himself look fair and decent, so the elves didn't know who he was. The elves never fell for any trick though. They made their rings separate without Sauron's help, so Sauron had no power over them. Dwarves and Men were tricked because they were greedy for gold and power, which they thought their rings would give them.
Edited by Nunepi on 5/5/2013 2:31 PM PDT
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55 Draenei Death Knight
470
So Aragon really wasn't of royal line and the one ring didn't get to dominate all the rings of power after all? So he only ever corrupted 7 dwarf lords and 9 kings of men? Where those men Numeroian? Also, after that battle for moria, did they populate moria again then dug ul the balroeg afterwords or have the baelrog always been there?

also why is gandalf meekly sitting by answering to the elves? Weren't him and sauruman granted power by the creators?
Edited by Crappytank on 5/5/2013 4:12 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Rogue
14955
05/05/2013 04:10 PMPosted by Crappytank
So Aragon really wasn't of royal line and the one ring didn't get to dominate all the rings of power after all?

He was, just the northern royal line, the southern line is the one that died off. And since Isildur's and Anarion's father was Elendil, it could be argued that there was only 1 royal line, they just started differentiating between the two when Elendil died and the two kingdoms started to drift apart.

The one ring did get to dominate all rings, but the elves were smart enough to stop using theirs when Sauron put on the one ring. They only started using their rings again when the one ring was lost. The men were Numenorean, or "dark" numenorean, as they came back to middle earth in the second age while it was still under the power of Sauron and so fell under his sway. The dwarves with the rings never really fell under Sauron's power, because dwarves were made to resist the domination of others while Morgoth was still in power. The most the rings could do to the dwarves is drive them mad with greed for gold and wealth. That is why Sauron never used the 3 or 4 dwarf rings he had and why there were no dwarven ringwraiths 8)

After the battle of moria the dwarves stayed away for a good while because they knew the balrog was still there, it had been dug up in the second age. But after awhile Balin wanted to go back and try to reclaim it with a handful of dwarves, those are the skeletons you see in the Fellowship movie.

I wouldn't say Gandalf is meek, but him and Saruman were charged to try to unite the different peoples in middle earth against Sauron. They were not allowed to do it by force, only persuasion and reasoning. So Gandalf can tell the elves and whoever else what they should do, but he can't order them to do it. He gives his advice and has to let them make up their own mind. Saruman fell because he tried to take power and rule people, which they were not allowed to do.
Edited by Nunepi on 5/5/2013 5:47 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
Some tangential Ring lore from one of the Lothlorien chapters:

            "I would aks one thing before we go," said Frodo, "a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?"

            "You have not tried," [Galadriel] said. "Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger?"

6. Clearly sauron was morgorth lieutenant, so how were the 3 elf lord, 7 dwarf lord, and 9 kings of men stupid enough to fall for his trick?

Gandalf didn't call Sauron "the Deceiver" for nothing. He was also more or less responsible for quickening the Akallabeth, or the Downfall of Numenor (I say quickening, since most of the Numenoreans were already getting pretty insidious by then). "Men wondered, for all that he said seemed fair and wise."

You know how Saruman had a thing with his voice? Sauron was similar in his own way. In his "seeming" if I remember the wording right. He could twist how others perceived him, although the Elves never trusted him. He was able to use the pride of the Numenoreans though, who thought they couldn't be fooled.

05/05/2013 04:10 PMPosted by Crappytank
So he only ever corrupted 7 dwarf lords and 9 kings of men? Where those men Numeroian?

Three of them were. The Rings were crafted before the destruction of Numenor, so most of the men living in Middle Earth at the time weren't Numenorean (and still aren't). Sauron also didn't count the Numenoreans as much of a threat early on either, so he wasn't targeting them directly at that stage.

Sauron never actually fought the Numenoreans; he turned them against the Valar and watched them destroy themselves. Which lead to the Valar removing the Undying Lands from the natural world. From that point on only those with a place there could make the passage from Middle Earth.

Which, for another bit of tangential Ring lore, includes a (very old by that point) Sam Gamgee.

Anyway, I figure that story outlines Sauron's cunning better than just making a few Nazgul.
Edited by Verelyse on 5/5/2013 7:12 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
0
The Three were never corrupted. The elves never used them when Sauron possessed the One. When Sauron finished the One, Celebrimbor perceived it's activation and knew they'd be set up. The Three were never used and were hidden until the One was lost. Then the elves began to use them.

The whole point was really to enslave the elves. Sauron failed in this. The dwarven and human rings were a bit of a sideshow. The dwarven rings never really worked out for Sauron. Dwarves were highly resistant to subjugation, and the Seven just made them more dwarf-like (to a fault, really). The Nine worked out as Sauron planned and we all saw the results.

The Numenoreans were a subset of the High Men at the end of the First Age. They were the ones that followed Elros (Elrond's brother--he chose to be human) to Numenor to found a realm there devoted to the Valar (more or less). The High Men that remained behind were the progenitors of the Rohirrim. Some of these were the men that Sauron enslaved with the Nine.

Sauron never directly confronted the Numenoreans. They were way out of his league militarily. He chose to ingratiate himself (he still could at this time) with them and worked within their society to bring them down. He succeeded, but a bit too well and his original corporeal form perished in the fall of Numenor. He was never able to appear as he did subsequent to this (the whole dark lord thing).
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