Why 15% expertise as prot?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
7570
I can think of two reasons:

We don't want to miss out on holy power generation.
and
We don't want Shield of the Righteous to miss and lose 3 seconds of damage reduction.

Any other reasons?

Does expertise still give spell hit? If so, does it still cap spell hit at 7.5% expertise?
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Shield of the Righteous doesn't have to hit to provide its buff, IIRC. It's primarily the holy power generation (and reliability thereof) that is important.

Expertise does convert to spell hit. If your hit + expertise add to more than 15%, you're hit capped for spells as well. With 15% expertise and 7.5% hit, you're actually well above the spell hit cap.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Spell hit will only cap at 7.5% if you already have hit capped at 7.5%. But the reason for 15% expertise is your Option 1, to not miss out on Holy Power.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7570
03/23/2013 07:51 AMPosted by Ravicana
Shield of the Righteous doesn't have to hit to provide its buff, IIRC.

Can anyone confirm if SotR is parried, you still get the damage reduction?

I've been looking all over for this answer, I can't find it.

The reason I'm asking is I have a serious fundamental issues with gearing beyond 7.5% expertise, and the "elites" I encounter in other threads don't provide more of an answer beyond "it's a bad idea, don't do it" so I am attempting to create my own analysis to make up my own mind.

edit: I will test this.
Edited by Kaskarum on 3/23/2013 8:26 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7570
Can anyone confirm if SotR is parried, you still get the damage reduction?

Yes!

Proof:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/proofab.jpg/
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90 Human Paladin
18040
In my Protection set I actually reforged some of my Expertise over to Haste and my survivability went up. Sure, I was getting parried more, but it didn't seem to matter. I was living longer and holding threat just fine. Granted, I still have a decent amount of Expertise, but I don't have 15%, for sure.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
In my Protection set I actually reforged some of my Expertise over to Haste and my survivability went up. Sure, I was getting parried more, but it didn't seem to matter. I was living longer and holding threat just fine. Granted, I still have a decent amount of Expertise, but I don't have 15%, for sure.

Capping expertise isn't a definite always-improvement due to how random being avoided is, but it makes haste and mastery's effects more reliable. You might gain more survivability from dropping expertise, and then that one time you get parried five times in a row and you die because you didn't have enough Holy Power to ShoR and you see what that does.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7570
then that one time you get parried five times in a row and you die because you didn't have enough Holy Power to ShoR and you see what that does.


I'm willing to bet "that one time" will happen once every few months, and it probably won't happen when you're in the middle of your guild's best night of progression on your best attempt at Heroic End Boss X resulting in a 1% wipe.

I'm exploring that trade-off. I want to see how much my character can gain if I accept the risk of being parried a few times in a row infrequently. I can't play enough to explore it with gear, so I have to analyze some data.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
I'm willing to bet "that one time" will happen once every few months, and it probably won't happen when you're in the middle of your guild's best night of progression on your best attempt at Heroic End Boss X resulting in a 1% wipe.

It certainly doesn't happen as often as it feels like it does. It's just memorable when it happens.

But here's the thing: hit and expertise in particular directly improve haste and mastery's effect on your survival. Every time a Holy Power generator misses, you lose that Holy Power, and you lose uptime on Shield of the Righteous. You might miss, say, three times in a raid boss fight, which isn't that much and probably isn't that noticeable unless they happen to be in a row.

But just how much haste do you need to increase your Holy Power generation enough--or how much mastery do you need to make your ShoRs big enough--to compensate for those misses? If you can't reach that point, you're just losing Holy Power (and, thus, damage reduction) and only partially compensating for it by attacking faster or having bigger ShoRs. If you get bad luck, you might not even compensate for it at all sometimes.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7570
03/23/2013 02:00 PMPosted by Keten
But just how much haste do you need to increase your Holy Power generation enough--or how much mastery do you need to make your ShoRs big enough--to compensate for those misses?

I guess if I had a hypothesis, it would be that replacing it with avoidance stats (dodge and parry) will net more holy power, in addition to their own value.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
I guess if I had a hypothesis, it would be that replacing it with avoidance stats (dodge and parry) will net more holy power, in addition to their own value.

Doubtful. You have a 12% chance on avoids to gain a charge of Holy Power, and replacing that expertise with parry will net hardly any avoidance gain. I'm no mathematician, but logic says that a small chance on a small chance is not going to be anywhere near enough to compensate for the lost expertise.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
The thing about getting 15% expertise is, there's no soft-cap on Expertise anymore. The first 7.5% is worth exactly as much as the second 7.5%, so if you think getting 7.5% expertise is worthwhile, going the rest of the way to 15% is just as worthwhile, for exactly the same reason.

Your choices here are "expertise is not a priority, at all", or "expertise is a priority, all the way up to 15%". Stopping halfway doesn't make sense.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7570
The thing about getting 15% expertise is, there's no soft-cap on Expertise anymore. The first 7.5% is worth exactly as much as the second 7.5%, so if you think getting 7.5% expertise is worthwhile, going the rest of the way to 15% is just as worthwhile, for exactly the same reason.

Your choices here are "expertise is not a priority, at all", or "expertise is a priority, all the way up to 15%". Stopping halfway doesn't make sense.

I was wondering how it would take for this statement to emerge.

I'm not saying there is a soft cap. I'm saying I personally think less is gained from 15% expertise than at 7.5%.

Assuming hit capped, you are gaining both spell hit and removing dodges up to 7.5% expertise. Meaning two things are being accomplished. We capped spell hit and can't be dodged anymore.

From 7.5% expertise to 15%, we are removing parries. The expertise no longer helps with spell hit. So we are only accomplishing one thing. We can't be parried anymore.

That implies a diminished return beyond a certain point.

Please educate me on my logical snag if I have one here.
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As Protection Paladins, if you are assuming Active Mitigation Model, there is no reason to forego hard-capping Expertise. Hit and hard-capping are crucial to damage smoothing. If you decide to only go for the soft cap on Expertise, you are already inviting RNG into your mitigation model - you almost might as well be playing the Avoidance method.

Read this - http://sacredduty.net/2012/10/02/damage-smoothing-expertise-mastery-and-haste/ and it will help explain it some more. There are no real diminishing returns on hard-capping Expertise. You are obtaining reliability, which is what we want in Active Mitigation model.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
I'm not saying there is a soft cap. I'm saying I personally think less is gained from 15% expertise than at 7.5%.

Assuming hit capped, you are gaining both spell hit and removing dodges up to 7.5% expertise. Meaning two things are being accomplished. We capped spell hit and can't be dodged anymore.

From 7.5% expertise to 15%, we are removing parries. The expertise no longer helps with spell hit. So we are only accomplishing one thing. We can't be parried anymore.

That implies a diminished return beyond a certain point.

In terms of expertise's total value, yes, it returns less beyond 7.5% because Avenger's Shield and Hammer of Wrath can no longer be dodged and our spells can no longer miss. But everything that caps at 7.5% is purely offensive. Our Holy Power generators either cap at 15% (Crusader Strike) or are unaffected by expertise (Judgment, Grand Crusader). So from a defensive standpoint, there's no point at which expertise's value diminishes.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6480
03/23/2013 02:10 PMPosted by Kaskarum
But just how much haste do you need to increase your Holy Power generation enough--or how much mastery do you need to make your ShoRs big enough--to compensate for those misses?

I guess if I had a hypothesis, it would be that replacing it with avoidance stats (dodge and parry) will net more holy power, in addition to their own value.


Before i begin, i havent been tanking this xpac (my friends are all about pvp now). I have in past and i still read a lot about pally tanking. My opinions are based on my reading and not on current xp.

Even with the 5.2 changes avoid stats are bad for prot pallies.

I know its completely backward but its the truth. Even when doing something terrible like binding sotr to cs a control/haste build still wins out.

If you are the number crunching type, check out theck's blog: sacred duty. He sims every type of gear set we can get and control/haste (aka hit/exp capped and then all the haste you can get) always comes out on top by fairly nice margins.

That being said, i could see going slightly under the exp cap being viable for a large haste boost. Just remember that when tanking dmg spikes are what kill you. And 100% guaranteed hopo gen is a fine way make sure that you always have the tools to manage such dmg spikes at hand.

Ps: the latest sacred duty blog is all about the effects of sacred shield. The math is pretty interesting and so are his results. Needless to say, many tank not using ss should read it and be enlightened :)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10750
Before anything, check out the link @Bassm posted - sacred duty provides a lot of the calculations and statistics that prove why you want to cap expertise at 15%.

That said, most here have already laid out the major details, but perhaps explaining things in another way might help. If you're stacking hit & expertise, then a large part of your gearing strategy revolves around reliability in damage smoothing. Without capping to 15%, your rotation may slip up, preventing you from having a SotR up when you need it (i.e. Sha Thrash). Further, being parried reduces the chance for GC to proc, giving you less AS, and therefore less HP.

The fact of the matter is that the control/mastery and control/haste stat priorities rely on a dependable rotation, whereas an avoidance strategy goes more for chance and TDR. The end result is that it's far more effective to gear one way or the other - a balance won't give you nearly as good survival as sticking to one stat priority.

EDIT: @Icandygriz totally posted when I was typing, so I'm reiterating some of what he said >_>;
Edited by Laryn on 3/25/2013 1:09 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7640
It's a bad idea. Don't do it.

Sorry, I had to. Not much for me to add other than I know where you are coming from. When I was at your gear level I was frustrated by how much itemization I had to spend to get Expertise capped; it felt like I was never going to get to actually stack Haste.

Everyone else has pretty much explained why hitting your Expertise cap is a good idea. The theorycrafting is out there, just visit Theck's blog sacredduty.net. It's not really for us to repost his number crunching.

Honestly it gets a lot better as your gear improves. Around 490ish is when I noticed I could comfortably cap and start stacking Haste. Just know the fights where you depend on SoTR (Sha of Fear, Tortos, etc) and make sure you spend it wisely. I'd say that intelligent HP useage is far more important than missing the odd HP generator.
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