PVE DPS after the 40% bomb buff - Thoughts?

1 Blood Elf Mage
0

That's one person's opinion. From my experience, the bombs are much closer than people think. If you have Breath of Hydra or LotC then yeah you have to use Nether Tempest, but the fact remains the bombs still have strengths and weaknesses.

Like I said, in general I prefer Frost bomb on single target because the damage compared with NT is nearly identical. I['ve tested it on dummies and ran simcraft. What I gain is the ability to predict when my BF procs will happen, which fits with my playstyle. Other people may want the mobility offered by NT and don't mind the random nature of BF procs. For me, unless the fight requires tons of movement, the mobility advantage of NT doesn't outweigh the predictability of brain freeze.

But I've seen many posts, including the frost pve guide recently posted, saying all the other bombs are useless and you should always pick NT. I'm saying that Frost Bomb, and LB are more competitive than people give them credit for. And on single target, the difference is very little.


Uh.. What Lhivera said was about Multi-targets. Yes you are correct that on single target the Bombs are very close, but on multi-targets NT comes out way ahead unless all the adds are tightly packed together.

It seems like the theme for ToT is ADDS+MOVEMENT, loads of both. And the adds are all spread out, so Frost Bomb doesn't do well.

What Lhivera said is that before the 40% buffs, Frost and Living bomb were competitive because NT's DPE wasn't high enough for you to just cast it on every single add that was up. It was better to cast 1~2 NTs and then go back to your normal rotation. But with the 40% buff to all bombs, NT's DPE got way to high and it's better to just keep it up on all targets and only then worry about your normal rotation.

It's not really a case of 'personal opinion', it's numbers. The bomb buff increased NT's DPE value way too much, so on fights with adds it's clearly the best choice.
Edited by Zarayva on 3/27/2013 8:12 AM PDT
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90 Undead Mage
0
Mage is definitely not fun. They buffed bombs just to shut us up. It's still just a terrible playstyle though. Tab-target-bomb. I play fire at 512, and I notice after AT/tinker buff (so 4-5 pyros with int proc), I'm getting ignites that range from 13,000 - 40,000 for my combustion. That makes too large of a dps change just off RNG. It's very depressing, especiallly considering my ignites are usually on the lower end.
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Like that I see a number of posters being up front about what their ilvl is... it can be hard when so many >505 folks are posting stuff that may not be so applicable to those in the 480, 490 range.

Seem to me (492ish) that LB simply does way more damage than NT... for single target and for up to 4-5 adds. Granted, I kinda make this judgement on what damage they are supposed to be doing... and that LB just seems to feel right most of the time. Yet I continue to read that "LB is pointless" "use NT over LB" "NT does moar damage." Can anyone say how one can come to such conclusions?

While the 40% buff was nice and kinda compensated, QoL just isn't what it used to be when I could spread it.
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100 Orc Warrior
12470
I have a fire mage alt, and my dps has gone through the floor since the patch. I'm at 494 ilevel and I'm struggling to be competitive in lfd and lfr.
I hate tab targeting - it seems like I have to endlessly cycle to get the right target, which takes valuable time away from actually dealing any damage. Add movement into this, where you can't use evocation or drop a circle, and it hurts dps even harder.

Above all that, I agree with what other posters have said - I just don't find the play style fun any more.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14370
03/26/2013 07:56 PMPosted by Rorrim
My thoughts? Mages aren't fun anymore.


And so now, I'm a shadow priest ^_^

For now.

Disc Priest now. Luckily I had this alt ready (489 ilvl [now 504], A Test of Valor near finished [7 Secrets of the Empire now]). Dropped my DPS spot, and got the heal spot.

Never had so much fun in a MoP raid before. Yeah, Blizzard killed mages this expansion.
Edited by Nobuna on 3/27/2013 11:08 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Warlock
20070
with my lock at 485, how long do you think it would take to reach my mage's item level: 506?
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100 Blood Elf Mage
10365
They will have to drag me kicking and screaming back to NetherTempest. Now that I don't have LotC I have giddily returned to Frostbomb.
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100 Human Warlock
7615
with my lock at 485, how long do you think it would take to reach my mage's item level: 506?


How much VP do you have banked?

It'll take 2-3 weeks is my guess from where you are at. Assume 3 drops from a full clear of ToT LFR/week +1 rep vendor item. Maybe you can get Oon to cough up something for you (that stupid dinosaur just gives me poop.)
Edited by Sybhyl on 3/27/2013 7:34 PM PDT
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4 Blood Elf Warlock
0
Living Bomb without the free spread to multiple targets is clumsy, and underpowered. It should spread to as many nearby targets as possible. (Fire doesn't have AoE, so this isn't such a bad thing.)

Dotting with NT makes the mage feel like a different class. (Again, not a good thing.) I would like to see it cast once for x seconds, then watch the explosions growing exponentially as they hit additional targets.

I've never used Frost Bomb. I liken it to the old Flame Orb that slipped off into some direction other than at the targets which you intended to kill.

Overall, I feel that the design changes aren't working out to make the class more interesting.
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90 Orc Warrior
6435
That "one person" was Lhivera the best mage theory crafter in the game almost certainly. Lhivera is also and MVP, Lhivera is like the mage version of Landsoul. Know who you are talking about.


Don't ride him man. Lhivera is just a person, regardless of anything he's done.
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100 Troll Mage
13745

That's one person's opinion. From my experience, the bombs are much closer than people think. If you have Breath of Hydra or LotC then yeah you have to use Nether Tempest, but the fact remains the bombs still have strengths and weaknesses.

Like I said, in general I prefer Frost bomb on single target because the damage compared with NT is nearly identical. I['ve tested it on dummies and ran simcraft. What I gain is the ability to predict when my BF procs will happen, which fits with my playstyle. Other people may want the mobility offered by NT and don't mind the random nature of BF procs. For me, unless the fight requires tons of movement, the mobility advantage of NT doesn't outweigh the predictability of brain freeze.

But I've seen many posts, including the frost pve guide recently posted, saying all the other bombs are useless and you should always pick NT. I'm saying that Frost Bomb, and LB are more competitive than people give them credit for. And on single target, the difference is very little.


Uh.. What Lhivera said was about Multi-targets. Yes you are correct that on single target the Bombs are very close, but on multi-targets NT comes out way ahead unless all the adds are tightly packed together.

It seems like the theme for ToT is ADDS+MOVEMENT, loads of both. And the adds are all spread out, so Frost Bomb doesn't do well.

What Lhivera said is that before the 40% buffs, Frost and Living bomb were competitive because NT's DPE wasn't high enough for you to just cast it on every single add that was up. It was better to cast 1~2 NTs and then go back to your normal rotation. But with the 40% buff to all bombs, NT's DPE got way to high and it's better to just keep it up on all targets and only then worry about your normal rotation.

It's not really a case of 'personal opinion', it's numbers. The bomb buff increased NT's DPE value way too much, so on fights with adds it's clearly the best choice.



The problem with this idea is that we're dealing with a straight damage spell. It's not like the TS/Ice Barrier situation where being "okay' or "competitive" is enough for it to get selected. Is NT superior to both FB and LvB in almost every situation? Unless you're against 10+ adds, yes. That is enough for most Mages, including me and you it seems. When it comes to damage abilities, there's not a lot of room for "flavor" or "competitiveness" if one talent is clearly superior to the other two.


It's not as simple as that. With, e.g., four adds, LB and NT deal essentially identical damage, but LB has two GCDs free while NT has none, making LB the clearly superior choice.


Bear in mind that the difference between putting LB on three targets before and putting it on three targets now is 0.5 secs plus a little more from haste — less than half a GCD. The perceived strength of spreading LB was a lot bigger than the actual strength. LB is still very competitive.


lhivera quoted from - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8414572265

it is like you got it completely backwards....
Edited by Elpadlol on 3/28/2013 6:23 AM PDT
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That's one person's opinion.


That "one person" was Lhivera the best mage theory crafter in the game almost certainly. Lhivera is also and MVP, Lhivera is like the mage version of Landsoul. Know who you are talking about.


Lhivera is also a LFR hero who just happens to have green text. He's allowed to have an opinion just like anyone else but he shouldn't pretend he has any idea how high-end play works, how numbers don't work out in actual play and other crucial things which you wouldn't see by staring at LFR/Calculators.
Edited by Ihadfunonce on 3/28/2013 7:42 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Mage
20550
03/28/2013 07:41 AMPosted by Ihadfunonce


That "one person" was Lhivera the best mage theory crafter in the game almost certainly. Lhivera is also and MVP, Lhivera is like the mage version of Landsoul. Know who you are talking about.


Lhivera is also a LFR hero who just happens to have green text. He's allowed to have an opinion just like anyone else but he shouldn't pretend he has any idea how high-end play works, how numbers don't work out in actual play and other crucial things which you wouldn't see by staring at LFR/Calculators.


You can criticize Lhivera for many things.

Knowledge of the mage class is not one of them.
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100 Worgen Mage
18645


Lhivera is also a LFR hero who just happens to have green text. He's allowed to have an opinion just like anyone else but he shouldn't pretend he has any idea how high-end play works, how numbers don't work out in actual play and other crucial things which you wouldn't see by staring at LFR/Calculators.

@Rentrenus

You can criticize Lhivera for many things.

Knowledge of the mage class is not one of them.


You can criticize anyone if they have no real are giving statistics and percentages but not really apart of what they're talking about.

Mathematics only get you so far, other RnG factors apply when making assumptions, the assumption comes into play when you're saying mathematically this IS how it works and that is final. You're assuming that since the math is correct, that you're correct which is wrong. You have to factor in the RnG of raid mechanics (which most DPS can fudge because they can move and dps) the strength of your healers and the competency of your group. A lot of the statistics and math come from simulations that involve single target burning, no movement, tunneled dps with perfect uptime. In a raid environment, if you have to move, you're not getting all those pretty proc's as a mage.

So, stop kissing a posters butt because they have green text and assuming that, that poster is correct.
Edited by Negishi on 3/28/2013 7:39 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Mage
20550

@Rentrenus

You can criticize Lhivera for many things.

Knowledge of the mage class is not one of them.


You can criticize anyone if they have no real are giving statistics and percentages but not really apart of what they're talking about.

Mathematics only get you so far, other RnG factors apply when making assumptions, the assumption comes into play when you're saying mathematically this IS how it works and that is final. You're assuming that since the math is correct, that you're correct which is wrong. You have to factor in the RnG of raid mechanics (which most DPS can fudge because they can move and dps) the strength of your healers and the competency of your group. A lot of the statistics and math come from simulations that involve single target burning, no movement, tunneled dps with perfect uptime. In a raid environment, if you have to move, you're not getting all those pretty proc's as a mage.

So, stop kissing a posters butt because they have green text and assuming that, that poster is correct.


It's not kissing a poster's butt. I've argued and disagreed with Lhivera PLENTY. If I wanted someone's advice on how best to handle Tortos, for example, Lhivera would not be my best choice. However, if I wanted to know if it was better to launch frozen orb before or after stacking frostbolt at the beginning of a fight, I bet Lhivera would provide a correct answer.

Different posters/people have strengths and weaknesses. For example, there's a poster in this thread who I really dislike, but you guys attacked his skill as a mage, which is extremely luaghable when the mage is in fact quite skilled. People have strengths and weaknesses. I prefer to see them criticized for their weaknesses, not their strengths. I've also been on these forums long enough to know who to listen to, and who to ignore. I recommend not ignording what Lhivera says, even if you end up disagreeing with it, and fight it on its own merits, not on the demographics of the person. All you've done is amory checked, you haven't won an argument.
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100 Human Warlock
7615
Lhiv isn't an LFR hero. He's math nerd. This is both worse and better than an LFR hero. It's why whenever he strays away from purely green eyeshade subjects he sounds like he's speaking Swahili. You need some skin in the game to keep au courant...even being an LFR hero. Math only gets you so far.

Full disclosure: I am an LFR hero (my progression raiding days are well behind me now and not likely to ever return.)
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90 Troll Mage
10295
03/28/2013 07:35 PMPosted by Negishi
Mathematics only get you so far


I keep seeing this idiotic statement pop up in this thread. It's hilarious.

A game engine, built on pure mathematical computations and physics algorithms, is somehow not understood when you apply mathematical knowledge is it?

Reading some of these posts leads me to believe that Blizzard adds fairy dust (or the tears of orphans) to their TTL chips, imbuing them with magical power that defies all knowledge and reason.

Give me a break. You sound like creationists. "Nothing can really ever be understood or known fully."

Chances are, if it was built using a human's knowledge of mathematics, it can be understood using another human's knowledge of mathematics.
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100 Human Warlock
7615
Hakuren, if pressed, even Lhiv will admit this. What is "fun?" What is "quality of life?" What is "utility?" These things cannot be described easily (or in some cases at all) in a spreadsheet or sim.

Your epistemology strikes me as...thin.
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