PVE DPS after the 40% bomb buff - Thoughts?

90 Troll Death Knight
9235
I hope it strikes you as <380 nm and >760 nm.

You're not discussing QoL, fun, or utility. You're discussing mathematics: more specifically, the bomb damage increase and how it impacted mage DPS.

I don't want to hear RNG BS either. I don't think many players actually understand what that acronym even means anymore.

Ever studied algorithm complexity or even the basic level C random number generator like rand() or perhaps seeds/srand(time(0))?

The only thing that makes it 'random' is lack of personal knowledge about game mechanics and inability to properly apply statistical analysis.
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90 Undead Mage
10315
03/29/2013 01:17 AMPosted by Zaven
It takes far more faith to believe in something other than creation.

...Well that's enough mage forums for me for about a week.
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Niflhel, I don't give a fig about the mathematics of the bomb change. It fails to address core problems in the class. It actually has created new ones. It's very plainly a bandaid slapped on top of the mage class to defer really fixing design problems.

I would feel exactly the same way if it ended up making mages the top dps class in the game, which it hasn't. DPS isn't the problem here, and slapping together some quickie numbers based solution won't solve it.

Game design isn't a purely mathematical exercise, and becomes debased when it devolves into that. It is an art, and what Blizz is doing here is painting by numbers.
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90 Troll Mage
11950
posted by Elpadlol

it is like you got it completely backwards....


How about putting who posted what in with the quotes. A bunch of quote not knowing who said them and what the thread conversation is about is as bad as reporter selectively editing.


how about following the link to the thread i was quoting Lhivera from so you can read for yourself it in it's entirety. is that selective editing, or you are just reaching at this point?

the fact of the matter is that you have no idea what you are talking about. but honestly, you aren't expected to. with your gear, it is clear you haven't invested much time or effort into your mage, so everything you say concerning mages or mage bombs has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Edited by Elpadlol on 3/29/2013 3:43 AM PDT
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
OK, people are understandably confused by my statements. Let me try to clarify:

LB is still competitive with NT with a smallish number of clustered targets. The shorter GCD, and the fact that it damages three targets instead of two per cast, gives it an edge.

FB will still beat NT given a large number of targets. While NT has no target limit, once the time it takes to apply it to all targets exceeds the duration of the DOT, it stops doing additional damage; FB will continue to gain from that point on.

However, the niches of superior damage that LB and FB occupy have shrunk, and the degree to which they are superior within those niches is also smaller. It used to be, for example, that Flamestrike was higher DPET than NT at about 5-6 targets, which meant any GCD that could be used on a Flamestrike at that number of targets or greater helped push FB and LB higher relative to NT. Similarly, Blizzard was higher DPET at something like 7-8 targets. Now, however, you need to have upwards of 10 targets before those GCDs are worth more than an additional NT, which means NT gains on the other two bombs rather than the other way around.

In short, there are still situations in which LB and FB are stronger than NT, but they are less common and NT is a lot closer in performance than it used to be. Meanwhile, NT's superiority now extends into more situations, and its advantage when targets are spread out has increased. It isn't always superior -- but when it's inferior, it's not by much, and when it's superior, it's by more than it used to be.

Add to all that the advantage it has in triggering periodic damage trinkets, and the fact that it's good for mobility and easy to use, and I feel that it's no longer balanced well against the other two bombs.
________________________________________________
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90 Troll Mage
11950

LB is still competitive with NT with a smallish number of clustered targets. The shorter GCD, and the fact that it damages three targets instead of two per cast, gives it an edge.


Lhivera, i have two short questions that hopefully you can shed some light on before i close the book on the subject personally...

1. the duration of the spells are different after haste is calculated. above 12.55% haste but below 20.9% haste, living bomb has a longer duration. at 20.9% haste, the duration of the spells are exactly equal. and above 20.9% haste but below 29.2% haste, nether tempest has a longer duration. a spell that has a longer duration will need to be applied less frequently, thereby allowing you to cast more of your other spells. Do we only take into consideration the difference in global cooldowns, and devalue or even ignore the difference in duration of the mage bombs?

2. the refresh window of nether tempest is more or less three times smaller than that of living bomb. refreshing the mage bomb before the penultimate tick is more of a dps loss than letting it fall off as we are casting a damaging spell while it drops off. after this is taken into consideration, is it not logical to assume that living bomb should have a higher up time, albeit it slightly, when compared to nether tempest as it should be falling off less often?
Edited by Elpadlol on 3/29/2013 9:26 AM PDT
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90 Troll Mage
11950
Posted by

how about following the link to the thread i was quoting Lhivera from so you can read for yourself it in it's entirety. is that selective editing, or you are just reaching at this point?

the fact of the matter is that you have no idea what you are talking about. but honestly, you aren't expected to. with your gear, it is clear you haven't invested much time or effort into your mage, so everything you say concerning mages or mage bombs has to be taken with a grain of salt.


And you just got smacked down by Lhivera LOL. but your lucky he is a nice guy he could of made you look a lot worse.


yet you were the one claiming that mages were "super dependent on NT" and that it was "70% of your dps" and arguing with another who said "each bomb has it's own strengths and weaknesses" when lhiv had just made cases for all 3 bombs. not me... but once again, you are reaching.
Edited by Elpadlol on 3/29/2013 8:47 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Mage
19205
You can criticize Lhivera for many things.

Knowledge of the mage class is not one of them.


Yes and no. I absolutely think Lhiv does a respectable job with the math. Practical use on the other hand no. Don't get me wrong, I think he is a good guy who means well. And that is why he has green text. And I do agree that he deserves it. That said, you also have to take what he gives with the understanding that there is a side of the game that he does not understand and does not take into consideration.

I keep seeing this idiotic statement pop up in this thread. It's hilarious.

A game engine, built on pure mathematical computations and physics algorithms, is somehow not understood when you apply mathematical knowledge is it?


There is more to it then that. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE math and think you can use it for many things, both in game and in the real world. However, just looking at numbers will not tell you all of it. Let me give you an example:

You have a group of mobs being tanked, lets say 6-7, by 1 tank. Puddles form randomly forcing the tank to shift position every little bit. He doesn't move much, but he does shift. Now, math will tell that the highest damage possible is to put NT on every one of them. And yes, theoretically it is. However, for those that have raided much, you know that putting it on everyone is a different story. Tab-targeting is problematic, especially when the mobs shift positions. Click targeting is troublesome because the shift, get in each others way, etc. Because of delays in getting the right ones targeted, it can very easily mean a dps lose to try and dot all of them. That is something that mathing out the 'best' wont really tell you.

The other thing you have to think about anytime you are dealing with math is number of variables and undefinable variables. The game may run itself entirely on math, but there are two problems to mathing things out. First, by design, you don't get all the variables. Second, players (particularly other players) cannot be put into a nice equation. You cannot math out all the solutions since you don't have all the variables. Practical experience can fill in what the math leaves out.
____

But, back to the bombs themselves. The truth is they are really not that far apart, in almost any situation. The damage, both single target and AE, is very close. One or another will be slightly higher in one situation or another. But that difference is rather negligible. On top of that, the bombs effect on your play style is barely different from one to the other. For the most part there is no real difference in play or performance in the tier. That is the problem with them. Oh, they are balanced, but they are nearly the same exact thing. You can choose any of them, but it is not really an important choice, just a meh. To me they are a failure for that reason. The only real advantage they give is Blizzards ability to uniformly buff mage damage for every spec by tweaking just these spells. Of course to me that is just a bandaid, and kind of sloppy.
Edited by Neeber on 3/29/2013 9:18 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17205


You can criticize anyone if they have no real are giving statistics and percentages but not really apart of what they're talking about.

Mathematics only get you so far, other RnG factors apply when making assumptions, the assumption comes into play when you're saying mathematically this IS how it works and that is final. You're assuming that since the math is correct, that you're correct which is wrong. You have to factor in the RnG of raid mechanics (which most DPS can fudge because they can move and dps) the strength of your healers and the competency of your group. A lot of the statistics and math come from simulations that involve single target burning, no movement, tunneled dps with perfect uptime. In a raid environment, if you have to move, you're not getting all those pretty proc's as a mage.

So, stop kissing a posters butt because they have green text and assuming that, that poster is correct.


It's not kissing a poster's butt. I've argued and disagreed with Lhivera PLENTY. If I wanted someone's advice on how best to handle Tortos, for example, Lhivera would not be my best choice. However, if I wanted to know if it was better to launch frozen orb before or after stacking frostbolt at the beginning of a fight, I bet Lhivera would provide a correct answer.

Different posters/people have strengths and weaknesses. For example, there's a poster in this thread who I really dislike, but you guys attacked his skill as a mage, which is extremely luaghable when the mage is in fact quite skilled. People have strengths and weaknesses. I prefer to see them criticized for their weaknesses, not their strengths. I've also been on these forums long enough to know who to listen to, and who to ignore. I recommend not ignording what Lhivera says, even if you end up disagreeing with it, and fight it on its own merits, not on the demographics of the person. All you've done is amory checked, you haven't won an argument.


You likely should qualify your previous statement, restricting his knowledge to Frost. It is fairly obvious he has no idea what it is like to play either fire or arcane.
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90 Draenei Mage
13735


It's not kissing a poster's butt. I've argued and disagreed with Lhivera PLENTY. If I wanted someone's advice on how best to handle Tortos, for example, Lhivera would not be my best choice. However, if I wanted to know if it was better to launch frozen orb before or after stacking frostbolt at the beginning of a fight, I bet Lhivera would provide a correct answer.

Different posters/people have strengths and weaknesses. For example, there's a poster in this thread who I really dislike, but you guys attacked his skill as a mage, which is extremely luaghable when the mage is in fact quite skilled. People have strengths and weaknesses. I prefer to see them criticized for their weaknesses, not their strengths. I've also been on these forums long enough to know who to listen to, and who to ignore. I recommend not ignording what Lhivera says, even if you end up disagreeing with it, and fight it on its own merits, not on the demographics of the person. All you've done is amory checked, you haven't won an argument.


You likely should qualify your previous statement, restricting his knowledge to Frost. It is fairly obvious he has no idea what it is like to play either fire or arcane.


Let's just say there is a reason my example was specific to frost spells.
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90 Draenei Mage
13735
03/29/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Ikhnaton
The rest of us are suffering and when you remove our survivability (thanks evocation nerf) our class really doesn't bring anything else to the raid but dps and a burden to the healers.


I'n my raid team one night, I was accidently placed in the wrong group and the healer FREAKED that I was in his group and they to stop and switched me because he didn't want that responsibility! I've noticed that whereas I never received symbiosis before, now I receive it before every boss fight all of the sudden, although a 10 second cast time feels like an eternity!

So yes, the healers have definitely noticed how I'm no longer using the evocation glyph.

The one glyph that I think many mages previously would have described as 'mandatory'
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03/29/2013 11:44 AMPosted by Rentrenus
I never received symbiosis before, now I receive it before every boss fight all of the sudden,


Did you recently acquire a boomkin?
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90 Draenei Mage
13735
03/29/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Mageski
I never received symbiosis before, now I receive it before every boss fight all of the sudden,


Did you recently acquire a boomkin?


No, we run with, get this:

-A bear
-A boomkin
-A cat

All we need is a tree for the full druid set! It's the same team we had in 5.1 though, so it was always the same team. But last week was the first time the healer told me to stop being squishy, so I'm applying defensive CDs more liberally now, and last wednesday was the first time I always got symbiosis. They also normally ask the raid leader where it should be placed, so that also makes me think it was an executive decision.
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90 Human Mage
16360
I want LB spread back. It was one of the enjoyable aspects of fire cleave that I thought was well done and very nicely handled because you could keep ignites on the main target and spread from there - very elegant. Resorting to tab target is ugly and is going backwards into the dark ages. Right now I feel very handicapped because they completely altered how I dps mob groups with this change and I haven't really recovered yet.

I don't have good aoe damage anymore which is ironic as a fire mage - other classes now outstrip me easily. My single target damage is lowest of my raid group now despite the bomb buff, whereas I used to be at the top when this expansion started. We are all at the 490-500 ilvl range. Ele shamans, rogues, hunter, and dk all higher than me now with less or equal gear.

I'm sure gear will fix things with scaling but I'm going to be stuck like this a VERY long time since our group is pretty casual-paced. That's a very depressing thought to imagine being sucky for months yet.
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90 Draenei Mage
10355
All we need is a tree for the full druid set! It's the same team we had in 5.1 though, so it was always the same team. But last week was the first time the healer told me to stop being squishy, so I'm applying defensive CDs more liberally now, and last wednesday was the first time I always got symbiosis. They also normally ask the raid leader where it should be placed, so that also makes me think it was an executive decision.

You're over thinking it. Boomkins get a minor DPS increase from giving symbiosis to Mages, that's probably what happened. Mage's survivability is fine, we have a lot of methods of minimizing damage, both through mobile abilities and defensive abilities. If your healer is freaking out over having you in their group, or your GM is giving you abilities to try to help you survive more it's one of two things:

1. You're playing poorly, at least relative to the other players in your guild
2. They're over analyzing/thinking things.
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03/29/2013 01:21 AMPosted by Babzidu
It takes far more faith to believe in something other than creation.

...Well that's enough mage forums for me for about a week.


I probably lol'd more than I should have.
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