Your most hated healing myths!

90 Blood Elf Mage
17070
03/25/2013 02:05 PMPosted by Pitkanen
Spirit is also pretty greatly inflated in value for disc (rapture) and rsham (MMT) anyway.
Everyone in my raid loves mana tide. Except me and the other shaman. To us it is just the reason why we can't regem for another 10-15% crit, or shoot for the 30% haste breakpoint... both strategies would boost our personal output significantly.


Edit: got rid of the wrong numbers, which were based on level 85.

At level 90, you need 600 crit to gain 1% spell critical strike change. So for an additional 15% crit, you'd need 9000 more crit. That's 28 +320 gems. Which isn't possible.
Edited by Taymage on 3/25/2013 2:17 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
03/25/2013 02:11 PMPosted by Taymage
Everyone in my raid loves mana tide. Except me and the other shaman. To us it is just the reason why we can't regem for another 10-15% crit, or shoot for the 30% haste breakpoint... both strategies would boost our personal output significantly.


You would need 8 or 9 +320 crit gems to get an additional 15% crit.

Edit: actually, I think that's wrong. I think you'd need more than that.
Yeah... you'd need like 9k rating.
I was thinking I could reforge + regem. But really converting 9k spirit into 9k haste/crit/mastery only works if I'm going for 2 or 3 different stats, not just one. So I'd have to go for the 30% haste breakpoint (another 4.5k haste from where I am) AND maximize crit.

Either way. I make the sacrifice for the team... and in return I get to keep my blue puddle down all the time even when it does only overheal... except on the tanks.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
03/25/2013 01:50 PMPosted by Taymage
This part of the article bugs me:


That part of the article "bugs" me too, but it's technically not incorrect: the interpretation is perfectly sound. Assuming mana was gone and you instead had a finite number of spells you could cast on some psuedo-cooldown determined by Spirit, every three minutes you would be allowed two more Rejuvenations.

One thing Hamlet makes mention of is how little some classes' total mana regeneration is actually affected by Spirit. With that in mind, reducing your overall Spirit, as you suggest, doesn't really seem that alarming. Hamlet doesn't suggest that though, as he's comparing Int to Spirit and not Spirit to Crit/Haste/Mastery.

Hamlet is simply employing a more methodological approach towards answering a question about healers. Ever since Cataclysm, healing communities have distanced themselves more and more from computationally relevant arguments--the article itself is an interesting read to hopefully get people back to a healthier mindset when theorycrafting healing.
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
03/25/2013 03:30 PMPosted by Celbrise
Healers who go oom are bad!" - no. Going oom is good. It's going oom at the right time that matters. Oom 50% into the fight is probably not the best thing. oom just as the fight ends = perfect use of mana


i disagree. why? because well when i do actual raids or even lfr some of the people who are healers do NOT heal at all thus causing the other healers to haul azz pushing out more heals and sweating out more mana faster. but other then that yea going oom half way into the fight is pretty bad.


This isn't even remotely what he was saying. His point is that it's better to throttle when there's little damage going out so that you have mana when it matters, and anything more than that can go into meter padding.

I've seen people OOM halfway through LFR Protectors of all things. What are they healing? There's very little damage going out until the last phase (except Lightning Storm), so they're apparently just blowing all their mana on overheal.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17070
03/25/2013 03:14 PMPosted by Aurinaux
This part of the article bugs me:


That part of the article "bugs" me too, but it's technically not incorrect: the interpretation is perfectly sound. Assuming mana was gone and you instead had a finite number of spells you could cast on some psuedo-cooldown determined by Spirit, every three minutes you would be allowed two more Rejuvenations.

One thing Hamlet makes mention of is how little some classes' total mana regeneration is actually affected by Spirit. With that in mind, reducing your overall Spirit, as you suggest, doesn't really seem that alarming. Hamlet doesn't suggest that though, as he's comparing Int to Spirit and not Spirit to Crit/Haste/Mastery.

Hamlet is simply employing a more methodological approach towards answering a question about healers. Ever since Cataclysm, healing communities have distanced themselves more and more from computationally relevant arguments--the article itself is an interesting read to hopefully get people back to a healthier mindset when theorycrafting healing.


His post would have made more sense if it was written during cataclysm, when (1) gems didn't have twice the budget for secondary stats as intellect; and (2) our mana pools increased with intellect.

Another part of the problem is that it is difficult to tell who his audience is. I'm saying this because I'm envisioning somebody new to raiding reading his post, deciding spirit isn't that big of a deal, and then dropping from 9K spirit to 5K spirit (it's only 8 rejuvs, you see). Go ahead and give that a try; I guarantee you will have to choose to either throttle most of your healing instincts or be running on fumes.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
03/25/2013 03:36 PMPosted by Taymage
His post would have made more sense if it was written during cataclysm, when (1) gems didn't have twice the budget for secondary stats as intellect; and (2) our mana pools increased with intellect.


I imagine he'd use the same method. It's just comparing the gain of one stat to the gain of another stat.

I don't understand the recoil. It's not like its a particularly novel idea. He's just normalizing the healing of Spirit to the healing of Int.
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
His post would have made more sense if it was written during cataclysm, when (1) gems didn't have twice the budget for secondary stats as intellect; and (2) our mana pools increased with intellect.


I imagine he'd use the same method. It's just comparing the gain of one stat to the gain of another stat.

I don't understand the recoil. It's not like its a particularly novel idea. He's just normalizing the healing of Spirit to the healing of Int.


Because this doesn't work in practice.

If you could expect to cast the same spells in the same order for 8+ minutes, then it'd be more quantifiable, but that isn't how healing works.
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 3/25/2013 3:59 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Lol, mana regeneration is continuous unless you're at 100%.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17070
03/25/2013 03:48 PMPosted by Aurinaux
His post would have made more sense if it was written during cataclysm, when (1) gems didn't have twice the budget for secondary stats as intellect; and (2) our mana pools increased with intellect.


I imagine he'd use the same method. It's just comparing the gain of one stat to the gain of another stat.

I don't understand the recoil. It's not like its a particularly novel idea. He's just normalizing the healing of Spirit to the healing of Int.


Ok, let me explain. It paints a very incomplete and I think misleading picture of spirit. It ignores class specific mechanics that make spirit important, glosses over the difference in secondary and primary stat budgets for gems, and instead focuses lazer-like on which flask a healer should use. To make it worse, the purpose of this post appears to be poking fun at what he perceives to be the stupidity of healers who all feel Oom at the beginning of an expansion. I am also annoyed that this continues to be quoted as some kind of wisdom, when it is old, incomplete at best, and penned by somebody who barely raids.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Again, I don't entirely agree with the article. I don't think it's misleading, though. I think it's a step above what the prevailing ideas of the time were when the article was written.

Sure, people blindly quote it, but people also blindly discard it. Blind men and elephants.
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
I think it has some merit...if you're comfortable with your mana (or if you're Disc/MW and focusing more on pushing DPS). If you aren't comfortable with your mana, and can't gem/reforge more spirit, it's easier and safer to flask/food spirit.

It's as simple as that.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Article that attempts to compare two stats numerically

versus

"We aren't DPS. It's easier to right click a Spirit Flask. Simple as that."

Ponder who the article is talking about for a moment.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
ONE
12520
Did you guys forget the part where that article concludes that Int > Spirit where only those two are options, such as Food, Enchants, and Flasks, and after a certain point (what the point was I don't recall offhand).

Which is fairly accurate. Int is better than Spirit on a 1:1 ratio for most classes. Although I guess there's a 600 Spirit food so Spirit food might still be worth using, but Enchants and Flasks should generally go for Intellect over Spirit. Gemming is largely still up to the class itself.
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
^My point was that if you're comfortable with your regen from gemming (where spirit budgeting is greater than or equal to int) or reforging (where, of the two, spirit is your only option), then int consumables are going to give you more bang for your buck.

The point where a healer is comfortable with their regen is completely subjective. I've gone as low as 7.5k and as high as 10.5k spirit on my druid, and I personally prefer and play better with higher spirit.

Article that attempts to compare two stats numerically

versus

"We aren't DPS. It's easier to right click a Spirit Flask. Simple as that."

Ponder who the article is talking about for a moment.


Nice misinterpretation, bro.

I'm saying that it's more forgiving to use spirit consumables, especially if you're new or out of practice. If you're sure you can sustain until the end of a fight, int is the superior choice.

It isn't an inherently bad article, it's just misleading.

This has really gotten off-topic.

There's also still the cases where spirit is worth more per point than for other classes (Rapture and to a much greater extent, MTT).
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 3/26/2013 12:29 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
03/26/2013 12:23 AMPosted by Dysrhythmia
I'm saying that it's more forgiving to use spirit consumables, especially if you're new or out of practice.


Well, for starters you stated: "And, really, with healing, it's better to be slightly weaker and safe than to make a mistake and go OOM." which makes no references to newcomers. I won't disagree that Spirit is probably kinder to newcomers, but the article could care less what you are. It just assumes you came to gain information probably.

The article has sparked an amazing range of discussion. Check the pingbacks on the article itself. Many articles state "I don't completely agree, but let's discuss these ideas . . ." or "I'm still trying to make sense of everything myself, but . . ." and of course forum posters have found themselves in positions where they have at least been forced to find reasons to justify their previous ways of belief instead of just simply going with it just feeling right.

03/26/2013 12:23 AMPosted by Dysrhythmia
If you're sure you can sustain until the end of a fight, int is the superior choice.


"If you don't go OOM then don't get more mana regeneration." Thanks Socrates.

Nice misinterpretation, bro.


If people spent more time reviewing their posts before submitting or clarifying their statements later rather than accusing others of "reading comprehension failures" then discussions probably wouldn't evolve into these quoting contests.
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90 Draenei Priest
6975


If people spent more time reviewing their posts before submitting or clarifying their statements later rather than accusing others of "reading comprehension failures" then discussions probably wouldn't evolve into these quoting contests.


But this promotes


The article has sparked an amazing range of discussion. Check the pingbacks on the article itself. Many articles state "I don't completely agree, but let's discuss these ideas . . ." or "I'm still trying to make sense of everything myself, but . . ." and of course forum posters have found themselves in positions where they have at least been forced to find reasons to justify their previous ways of belief instead of just simply going with it just feeling right.


and maybe that's a good thing. It gets people to think out of the box.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I'm not following the connection between the two quoted posts. Are you saying that identifying misinterpretations sparks discussion?

I'll admit I probably deserved the comment, though. Both the post I just wrote and the one I just previously authored before it was ignoble and contained unnecessary sarcasm. Sorry about that, Dysrhythmia.

Edit: Phrasing.
Edited by Aurinaux on 3/26/2013 1:09 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
Yeah I...should probably sleep soon. In hindsight they're really not that related at all.

Sorry for my own sarcasm and also for derailing the thread!
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
While stacking int is technically the min/max way to heal, it gives you a lower safety net if you do make a mistake than spirit. And, really, with healing, it's better to be slightly weaker and safe than to make a mistake and go OOM.


But stacking throughput is going to make your healing less frantic (because your heals are bigger giving you more room for error), which will make it easier to not make mistakes. So the question is, which one is better, mathematically? Stacking Spirit, and spamming heals as fast as you can? Or stacking throughput and being able to heal a bit more methodically, even in high HPS situations?

It'd really just be easier to say that healing is not the same as DPSing; while one stat can clearly be "better" than another, it might not be the most useful in practice (see crit vs mastery debates for rsham).


In DPS theorycrafting, when you hear statements like this, usually the answer is that the player must adjust their playstyle so that the right stat on paper really becomes the right stat in practice. That's why DPS switch specs so often, even for a 1% increase. I think healers are just way too quick to dismiss any math with statements like this that just can't be backed up with facts.

Spirit is also pretty greatly inflated in value for disc (rapture) and rsham (MMT) anyway.


But by how much? And does that make it better than the other secondaries? Better than Int?

- Rapture doesn't really let Disc get more out of Spirit (since 5.2) its just a rebate coupon for the expensive cost of PW:S (similar to how Muscle Memory is a rebate for Jabbing for Fistweaving). They don't want you to spam PW:S. But they also want you to be able to cast a bunch of PW:S, once in awhile, if you feel like you need to.

Spirit does different things for different classes. For some classes, it really IS a direct throughput increase.


You aren't really understanding the articles. He's arguing that for EVERY class, spirit is ALWAYS a throughput increase. The question is, is it better than the other throughput stats?
Edited by Ramayana on 3/26/2013 3:30 AM PDT
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