Tank Lounge #65: Game of Tanks

100 Blood Elf Death Knight
14810
Apparently IoT dailies don't get removed from your log.
Edited by Gødforbid on 3/29/2013 4:43 AM PDT
14 Night Elf Druid
0
In a similar vein to Krinu's tanking FAQ someone should make a "history of tanks in WoW" post, explaining mechanical changes/important changes/why changes were made to the system.

There's definitely stuff that we discuss that literally no one would know unless they tanked (or were involved in some way with tanks) since Wrath at the very least. For that matter I still don't know how some TBC mechanics like Shear worked fully, just that you needed a Warrior for it.

I don't think it could be stickied since so much of it would have to be opinion-based, even if it was widely agreed upon (e.g. CTC cap in 4.x was OP) but it could help as a reference and explanations to the occasional post that suggests prior tanking mechanics that were changed during/after an expansion.
96 Night Elf Warrior
9385
03/29/2013 08:01 AMPosted by Kangarooster
(e.g. CTC cap in 4.x was OP)


Not our fault people wanted to be special snowflakes and not roll block tanks. My co-tank(DK) used to hate my pally. So easy to cap. :-)
100 Pandaren Monk
21000
In a similar vein to Krinu's tanking FAQ someone should make a "history of tanks in WoW" post, explaining mechanical changes/important changes/why changes were made to the system.

There's definitely stuff that we discuss that literally no one would know unless they tanked (or were involved in some way with tanks) since Wrath at the very least. For that matter I still don't know how some TBC mechanics like Shear worked fully, just that you needed a Warrior for it.

I don't think it could be stickied since so much of it would have to be opinion-based, even if it was widely agreed upon (e.g. CTC cap in 4.x was OP) but it could help as a reference and explanations to the occasional post that suggests prior tanking mechanics that were changed during/after an expansion.


maybe we could do something like "this is why warlocks and shamans are not tanks anymore" .. and make up some information, as if they were tanks at some points .. =D
14 Night Elf Druid
0
Maybe it's just me, but the aspects of game design shown in just tanking mechanics/mechanics changes alone are pretty fascinating.

It'd be a study in itself to see how WoW raids progressed from Vanilla to now.
85 Night Elf Warrior
0
Maybe it's just me, but the aspects of game design shown in just tanking mechanics/mechanics changes alone are pretty fascinating.

It'd be a study in itself to see how WoW raids progressed from Vanilla to now.


*sunder-tab sunder-tab sunder-tab sunder-tab sunder-tab sunder-tab sunder-tab*

Show of hands, who all remembers those days...I'll smack anyone that says "fondly" by the by. Fair warning and all.
100 Pandaren Warrior
16360
The tank bracers are dodge/parry if I recall correctly, so they're more valuable than the random stat ones anyway. It's just a nice intermediary.


I was thinking a mastery random would beat them (Not that I'd ever actually see that anyway >.>)
100 Draenei Shaman
9475
It depends on how the study would work.

You'd almost have to have multiple people contribute to it, because the perspectives would be so vastly different. That in itself would be really, really hard. For overall Warrior persectives on that kind of scale, you have what Xav (who doesn't play anymore) and Kungen (who BS's in any of his blogs and often whines about the negativity).

I mean, people like myself, Demo, Mule, Reesi, Fasc, Efflow, Pleth, and Krinu just to name a few have been around for quite a while - but a lot of our overall perspectives would probably almost identical and it'd end up being just one massive blog of people agreeing with eachother. Then again, outside of this forum probably no one knows who any of us really are, so they're not likely to care.

((I named the names I did because these have been people that have around a good bit since this forums construction back in Wrath))
90 Pandaren Warrior
16625
Yeah, so you end up losing a few hundred secondary stats. I think overall it's worth it though because of the socket. (And mine are Thunderforged too.)


And depending on how you're building your set up, they SHOULD offer the most mastery out of all the bracers if I did the math right. Even then, they all I've been able to get, so Q_Q / GG me. And Sam's right, it was Protector for most if not all night; really sucked that we didn't have our Shaman around for it, the upgrades would have been great.
14 Night Elf Druid
0
03/29/2013 09:08 AMPosted by Disagreed
but a lot of our overall perspectives would probably almost identical and it'd end up being just one massive blog of people agreeing with eachother.
Likely since anyone who disagreed would probably just, you know, not be vocal about it, not post, or simply not frequent this forum any more.

I liked the blue description of forums as an echo chamber. I don't think this forum is too bad about that when we have serious discussions (as opposed to, y'know, trolling crap from Rvalue) but number of times we have had that this expansion: like three maybe
03/29/2013 09:23 AMPosted by Clutche
And depending on how you're building your set up, they SHOULD offer the most mastery out of all the bracers if I did the math right.
Mastery schmastery.

Dodge/parry bracers reforged to mastery will be more TDR.

:D
Edited by Kangarooster on 3/29/2013 9:30 AM PDT
100 Human Warrior
14355
Tank design in WoW is interesting to me from a game design perspective because of a couple things:

1) Tank design is actually reflected in Healer design; you could say that tank design is based off of healer design, or vice versa. One usually changes because of the other; Cataclysm's tank balance changes to allow us to move beyond just soaking hits with large health pools were also reflected in healer mana changes, or rather, making it so healers couldn't hit absurd levels of mana regeneration, as well as spell and tool changes.

2) The movement away from "niches" and the balancing out of them to allow "any tank to handle content" actually created a lot of interesting (and "interesting") mechanics for each class to accomplish more or less the same goals but not feel overtly similar. We don't have the idea of an "avoidance" tank any more really, or, not in the same way Feral Druids were the perenial "off-tank" in Burning Crusade, or Paladins were the quintessential "add tank" in Burning Crusade as well. Wrath got a little funky, because they were trying to move away from the niche idea, but at the same time created Death Knights as tanks with both a new idea (each spec can do the job "equally") as well as basing them off of the original "niche" design; that they were in a sense, supposed to be "cooldown-based anti-magic tanks" which would have been wholly unfun.
100 Draenei Shaman
9475
But have they ever really moved fully away from "niches"?

Pal/War/DK have no equivalent of say Savage Defense, so there still is kind of that "avoidance" tank flavor there. Warriors still have a mobility "niche", and thus turn around and get labeled the add tank a lot.

Grant it, these aren't in the same league as back in BC but IMO they still exist.

I will agree 150% though that Healer/Tank changes go hand in hand. Although with how wide the scope is for healing and the degree of changes and balance on that end, tank balance probably comes after when they feel like they are at a good spot with healing.
100 Pandaren Warrior
16360
Vigilance pigeonholed us into the OT role wtf bliz
14 Night Elf Druid
0
Well, of course healer/tank changes go hand in hand. We've been gearing for healers since, like, at least Wrath.

The whole avoidance thing really isn't an issue. It turns out pretty bad for the Monk if RNG rolls badly and all hits of Dread Thrash connect through 85%+ avoidance - that's about it. :P

Warriors are only labeled as add tank because... well, for this expansion, abusing Mocking Banner. Our AoE DPS is pretty average, it's really the mitigation where it's just like "hey, where are the other tanks at?"
100 Draenei Shaman
9475
Vigilance pigeonholed us into the OT role wtf bliz


You know what I meant :p

The niche's aren't bad anymore, but I think they are still there. I personally think it's all marginal for the most part, I only really like to cry foul whenever there is REALLY a blatant difference in performance between X against Y. I'm a firm believer that small niche's are a good thing, just as long as they are handled properly.

IE I don't want a repeat of half of H-DS. Those were just, yeah that really displayed niche's in full swing.
100 Draenei Shaman
9475
Huh

My BP is 139/82 with a heart rate of 74. So I guess that means I have a bit high blood pressure and the resting heart rate of an ox.
100 Human Warrior
14355
The niche's aren't bad anymore, but I think they are still there. I personally think it's all marginal for the most part, I only really like to cry foul whenever there is REALLY a blatant difference in performance between X against Y. I'm a firm believer that small niche's are a good thing, just as long as they are handled properly.


Niches, as they existed back in Vanilla and TBC, don't exist anymore. That simple :D

The avoidance thing is so minor that it's honestly not even worth discussing.

The idea of "niches" you're discussing now are more just actual class differences now; literally every class doesn't have Block (and they prevent damage through different measures, so they don't need it either), and that's fine if they're within a range of each other that's acceptable.

Also let's not talk about H-DS anymore ._.
100 Pandaren Warrior
16360
IE I don't want a repeat of half of H-DS. Those were just, yeah that really displayed niche's in full swing.


Niches by themselves aren't bad.

Every bosses niche being "loldk" is bad.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
I consider Dragon Soul to be Blizzard's apology to the tank DK community for Firelands.
100 Night Elf Death Knight
13655
2 things, YAY PRETTY PRETTY POLEARM FOR TANK SET.

And when a priest "lifegrips" you to him while the snail is focused on you, and then proceeds to turn around and kill 11 people in LFR, how hard can you laugh?
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