So shaman sucks, and we get... no response?

90 Night Elf Druid
11305
I have every healer with 480+ ilevl and raided on all of them. Resto shaman are strong people need to stop looking at logs. Sustain burst for aoe damage on shaman is insane and none can match it.

They do lower on total healing because they dont have absorb , absord is the new meter king because it will prevent any light damage. But when real healing needed shaman shine.

Anyway just repeating what has been said already

and btw if you play a healer to rank or top meters I suggest you to reroll DPS, usualy a healer that rank mean 2 things , other healer in is raid failed or the group failed at avoiding damage.
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3 Tauren Warrior
0
Logs are not a good way to determine whether if a class isn't entirely good or not. They only give you a fraction of context (HPS).


Did you even take the time to read what I had said .I also said shaman suck on all fights that dont have stacking which is why if you got to the main shaman thread you can see info on how many shaman where in the top guild's kill's . But I guess that's not a good way to determine whether shaman are good are bad .On a side note shaman bring a ton of utility and even then out of 5 of the top guild's 2 of the top guild's only bring 1 shaman in and the other 3 only bring them in for some of the fight's
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88 Human Mage
8645
03/23/2013 01:00 PMPosted by Practical
The logs people have posted say other wise .Shaman dont suck when the fights are made for them AKA stacking fights. And they are good in pvp other then when they get stun cc trained down by good players. As they do not have any real defence cd's and can not drop totem's while silenced, CCED. SO thanks for the fake pep talk about shaman being ok and not sucking


Logs are not a good way to determine whether if a class isn't entirely good or not. They only give you a fraction of context (HPS).


Individually perhaps (even though I would consider HPS a large fraction of context being as it's the main measure of throughput minus external variables ie healing comp, specific boss mechanics, etc). Collectively, however, they represent a broader picture that is more useful in determining whether a class is good or not. To disagree with this would be to dismiss logs alltogether.

Unless there is another metric you seem to be using that I'm not familiar with?
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Shamans don't suck.


They don't as a class. But this raid tier is exposing all of their weaknesses, and they don't really have anything to compensate. Beyond MTT. Do we really want to go back to Shaman being brought as Mana Bots, Practical?
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
0
Collectively, however, they represent a broader picture that is more useful in determining whether a class is good or not. To disagree with this would be to dismiss logs alltogether.


No, collectively you're getting a broad picture on a class based on that context (HPS in this case if we're talking about logs), which is a small fraction of the whole deal.

There are a lot of variables to consider, as you've pointed out yourself, when talking about a class, but talking about a class in a "broad sense" and throwing up links to meters/logs doesn't give you the full definition or scope of problem (if at all) with Shamans.

If they aren't being taken to raids (as much) as other classes, then the first few things I would ask:

-Are the other classes just stronger?
-Is the percentage amount of shamans being taken to these raids at an acceptable rate?
-What's the skill level of __________ shaman?

All of which we don't really have the answers to unless they are glaringly obvious.

If Shamans are having technical issues/problems that limit them from being as good as they can in raids, then I can understand. But to say they "suck" is hyperbole at best and a poor attempt at sensationalism.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17450
03/23/2013 11:49 AMPosted by Riphoof
Shamans don't suck


The logs people have posted say other wise .Shaman dont suck when the fights are made for them AKA stacking fights. And they are good in pvp other then when they get stun cc trained down by good players. As they do not have any real defence cd's and can not drop totem's while silenced, CCED. SO thanks for the fake pep talk about shaman being ok and not sucking


I'm not sure I can agree fully. Rshamans are still a very capable spec, and although to perform at the level of other healers this tier we have to utilize ourselves to a much higher degree(Although I love the challenge). Shamans went from dropping HR in T14 to barely being able to use it, this in its own can cause player issues due to adaption.

Shamans have mechanical problems, I posted a thread on it and have commented elsewhere on it. But we're not bad and we definitely don't suck. The best thing Shamans can do is provide GC with what he ask for and hope he relates, if for some reason they decide Shamans don't need anything, then we just have to move on and learn how to get better and hope during the next Beta cycle they listen to feedback when it said Riptide/Chaining glyph won't help our mechanical flaws at all.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I try to stay out of it as I'm currently not raiding, but I agree with Practical.

Using buzzwords like suck/broken/etc are a bit too ominous. This isn't a new issue, and in the past Shamans would encourage others to adapt to these challenges and I'll recommend the same thing today. Shamans should, as far as I know, still be able to contribute in their own way. I know a lot of people use Firelands as a point of reference. I don't think the times were much different, and I actually was raiding then. You may not always be able to acquire the same output as others but you can probably earn your keep.

I'm not saying Shamans don't need some changes. I actually suggested awhile back that I think the Shaman skill cap is probably too high. But any class would probably be able to suggest some ways that their class could improve. This isn't a petition or a race to the bottom.
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90 Draenei Shaman
5355
While I play a mage, too, and have nothing against them, the speed of response to their outcry and silence regarding the shaman concerns is very disappointing. Acknowledging issues or reassuring us would be nice, but there are no posts, comments, fixes, if necessary, nothing at all.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I'll agree with that, Zarotustr. I think Blizzard's correspondence with Resto Shamans has been lackluster for years.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
While I play a mage, too, and have nothing against them, the speed of response to their outcry and silence regarding the shaman concerns is very disappointing. Acknowledging issues or reassuring us would be nice, but there are no posts, comments, fixes, if necessary, nothing at all.


I agree that it's a problem, but primarily because when they don't respond at all, or even acknowledge issues, it just inflames the issue. People conclude that the Devs don't see a problem at all, or just don't care, and they get upset. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.
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100 Orc Shaman
14900
think Blizzard's correspondence with Resto Shamans has been lackluster for years.


Even though I stop raiding this is the thing that made me mad.I played beta I posted feedback about the bad glyphs we had like Riptide before when it took away 100% of the upfront heal .The bad chain heal glyph we have ETC . And they did nothing in cata nothing in beta to fix any of the main problems shaman have always had spread healing . But oh wait they made healing rain cheaper last patch instead of fixing spead healing . This is waht makes me mad
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90 Human Paladin
8725
You have on command raid saving CDs and a mastery that reinforces this. Healing meters are constantly skewed by gimmick builds and raid set ups. HPS and Healing are not like DPS, they are not concrete numbers to go by. HPS usually show two things; activity and ilvl, not class performance.
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100 Orc Shaman
14900
but primarily because when they don't respond at all, or even acknowledge issues, it just inflames the issue. People conclude that the Devs don't see a problem at all, or just don't care, and they get upset. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.


Yes YES this is what makes me mad is that they do resond with we know that shaman are crap at spread healing and they stated this mid fire lands. Then give us ancestral vigor makes the fights in DS for shaman .Then comes beta nothing to fix the problem .Then comes 5.2 and some 1 tell me I am wrong but they made the fight's they had to know shaman were going to be !@#$ in there
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90 Human Paladin
8725
03/23/2013 03:14 PMPosted by Zanabel
think Blizzard's correspondence with Resto Shamans has been lackluster for years.


Even though I stop raiding this is the thing that made me mad.I played beta I posted feedback about the bad glyphs we had like Riptide before when it took away 100% of the upfront heal .The bad chain heal glyph we have ETC . And they did nothing in cata nothing in beta to fix any of the main problems shaman have always had spread healing . But oh wait they made healing rain cheaper last patch instead of fixing spead healing . This is waht makes me mad


Paladins have a grand total of zero throughput glyphs, our t14 set bonus is your HR buff. Yet were godmode.
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100 Orc Shaman
14900
Paladins have a grand total of zero throughput glyphs, our t14 set bonus is your HR buff. Yet were godmode


Are you a retard this is a Real question in what world do you think riptide glyph or chain heal glyph are throughtput glyph's just leave the thread you have 0 to add after that stupid post .
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
[quote="84134545039"]

I'm not sure I can agree fully. Rshamans are still a very capable spec, and although to perform at the level of other healers this tier we have to utilize ourselves to a much higher degree(Although I love the challenge). Shamans went from dropping HR in T14 to barely being able to use it, this in its own can cause player issues due to adaption.

Shamans have mechanical problems, I posted a thread on it and have commented elsewhere on it. But we're not bad and we definitely don't suck. The best thing Shamans can do is provide GC with what he ask for and hope he relates, if for some reason they decide Shamans don't need anything, then we just have to move on and learn how to get better and hope during the next Beta cycle they listen to feedback when it said Riptide/Chaining glyph won't help our mechanical flaws at all.


I think the "barely being able to use HR" thing is a pretty significant exaggeration. At least in 25M, it's more like we have gone from needing to drop HR on CD to still needing to drop it on CD 80%+ of the time, because even though T15 mechanics have removed about 70% of its effectiveness, it still does more for the mana and cast time than any other option you have in your toolkit. Realistically, at least for 25, I don't think much has changed in how you generally need to play (HR/HST/RT on CD, with fillers in between), it's just that the effectiveness/usefulness of that way that you need to play has dropped significantly with no compensation. I don't even necessarily understand the "need to adapt", etc, because really, what is there to adapt to that is different from T14?
-RT and HST should be used on CD obviously.
-HR should still be used on CD (preferably with ULE) if it will hit at least 3 targets for it's duration (or possibly 6+ targets if for 5 seconds or more)
-Glyphed Riptide is still a pretty terrible option that is generally worse than just dealing with the lack of instant casts outside of SWG (except on a fight like H Tortos where there is little effective overheal).
-Outside of that, it's the same as T14 - it's always been single target direct heal or Chain Heal fillers (or maybe Lightning Bolt spam with Telluric Currents glyphed.

I also don't agree with the notion that Resto Shaman have a significantly higher skill cap. I would argue that we have a lower skill cap than Disc Priests, Holy Pallies, Resto Druids and especially Mistweavers. Too much of our output comes from cooldowns and from abilities that should be used on cooldown. It doesn't take much skill to use HR, HST and RT on cooldown, nor does it take much skill to effectively use Ascendance, HTT and SLT. Outside of that, that "filler time" is such an insignificant component of how we actually perform that it doesn't matter that much, and that filler time is really the only place that player skill significantly comes into play. If anything, we are probably the lowest skill/easiest healer to play.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
A skill cap determines the amount of skill necessary to accomplish similar output. Shamans seem to require prohibitively more precise healing to match others.

Elsewhere, yeah. Shamans don't really have much to figure out. You'll probably regularly use 2-3 abilities at most per each boss fight and Tidal Waves is a great crutch to avoiding costly mistakes.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
A skill cap determines the amount of skill necessary to accomplish similar output. Shamans seem to require prohibitively more precise healing to match others.



And I disagree with that as well. To be able to achieve output matching other healers is more a factor of things that are outside of your control than anything that involves player skill.
-How low are the health levels of the raid? If something goes wonky, especially if it lines up with one of your major cooldowns being available, your output skyrockets moreso than any other healers' output
-How many Disc Priests and Holy Pallies are there in the raid spreading absorbs and preventing volatility in HP%, preventing Shaman mastery from being effective?
-Are you using fewer total healers than the typical number being used for that encounter? Shaman output scales more when underhealing than when you are using 7 healers for a fight that needs 5.

I don't think any of those things have anything to do with player skill; they have to do with luck, raid composition, and skill of other players in the raid. Most of what Shaman do (at least in a 25 man raid) is kind of on auto pilot; the results only significantly vary by the conditions in the raid and how well you do with the ~20% of your output that comes from filler abilities.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I should change the word output to results, but the difference is technically little to none--just a phrasing issue.

Yeah, some encounters just won't be as conducive to climbing meters. Others will fall squarely into Shaman hands. The point being put across is that you can be a sizeable contribution to your raid.

I'll note that the Mastery vs Absorbs obsession is getting a bit silly.
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100 Orc Shaman
22250
Lets take an encounter like heroic jin'rokh the breaker that is pretty optimal for shamans (10m because that is the tier I raid). Rotating HTT and Spirit walk + ascendance every storm.

That fight lines up basically perfectly with our cooldowns and our mastery is extremely good that fight. During the storms EVERY other class has virtually equally good cooldowns for that. During the other phase of the fight we get wrecked but who cares right? Healing doesn't really matter but at the end of the fight we end up parsing 40-50% behind other classes and during the storms we do virtually the same healing under optimal conditions.

Bear in mind this is an optimal fight for shamans and the sub optimal classes for that fight are still performing just as well as us during the phase where we should be running away with the healing.
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