So shaman sucks, and we get... no response?

90 Human Paladin
12575
not exactly, it's more because a large portion of this tier revolves around spreading out and movement added onto the absorb problem.


So you don't think that you would be putting out competitive hps if you had pallies mastery? 30% absorb on all your heals while losing your other mastery would bring you way up on the hps meters.

The other part of the problem is how strong resto shaman heals are in pvp as their mastery their is by far the best and resto shamans are already top tier healers in pvp arguably the best healer in arenas and among the best in RBGs.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810


The fact that they are completely excluded from 49% of the first kills in the world top 5 25H guilds this tier debunks your theory.


I'm curious how these numbers have progressed over the last week or so. I see pretty good representation of R-shams just looking through the top 2-3 US 25m guilds.

H-Dark Animus seems to be the one fight where they're clearly getting dropped for other classes, but, again, just curious how representation has progressed since this quoted comment.
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90 Human Paladin
12575
The difference in the meters is all because of the shamans mastery. I'm getting 25 to 35% heals from my mastery in a standard fight. While I don't know the exact number I'm relatively sure shamans in pve are only getting 1/2 or less from their mastery due to all the absorbs/fight mechanics.

So basically I'm suggesting that shamans are relatively on par with the other healers but due to how their mastery works they will show less on the meters on nearly every fight.


Except they're not, because they're in a tier where the bulk of fights don't work with their toolkit.


That's right but neither does most of the pallies tool kit. However our mastery is propping us up while yours is not in PvE.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
That's right but neither does most of the pallies tool kit. However our mastery is propping us up while yours is not in PvE.


The meters would show that Paladins are fine this tier. Spread or stack, you have things to deal with them (talentsssss, Eternal Flame....). Shaman don't have that luxury, and this tier is exposing that once again. Firelands 2.0.

And I'm still pissed about the first Firelands.
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90 Human Paladin
12575
03/26/2013 11:07 AMPosted by Tiriel
That's right but neither does most of the pallies tool kit. However our mastery is propping us up while yours is not in PvE.


The meters would show that Paladins are fine this tier. Spread or stack, you have things to deal with them (talentsssss, Eternal Flame....). Shaman don't have that luxury, and this tier is exposing that once again. Firelands 2.0.

And I'm still pissed about the first Firelands.


Thats true but as I pointed out its the mastery that is the problem. If shaman had pallies mastery they would be fine on the hps meters this tier as riptide would equal eternal flame for example.

I don't really know what they can do to fix the hps difference or if it even matters as some people have argued. Pulling people from near death in 1 huge heal is a big deal even if it doesn't show up as high hps at the end of the fight due to other times where rshamns mastery sucks due to everyone being high health.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Thats true but as I pointed out its the mastery that is the problem. If shaman had pallies mastery they would be fine on the hps meters this tier as riptide would equal eternal flame for example.

I don't really know what they can do to fix the hps difference or if it even matters as some people have argued. Pulling people from near death in 1 huge heal is a big deal even if it doesn't show up as high hps at the end of the fight due to other times where rshamns mastery sucks due to everyone being high health.


I don't think your Mastery is the issue, though. Mistweavers and Resto Druids are having no issue pulling strong numbers on many fights, even those with multiple Paladins and Disc Priests. Yet Shaman can't keep up. That suggests that Shaman issues most likely have 0 to do with your Mastery and everything to do with their toolkit.
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90 Human Paladin
12575
Thats true but as I pointed out its the mastery that is the problem. If shaman had pallies mastery they would be fine on the hps meters this tier as riptide would equal eternal flame for example.

I don't really know what they can do to fix the hps difference or if it even matters as some people have argued. Pulling people from near death in 1 huge heal is a big deal even if it doesn't show up as high hps at the end of the fight due to other times where rshamns mastery sucks due to everyone being high health.


I don't think your Mastery is the issue, though. Mistweavers and Resto Druids are having no issue pulling strong numbers on many fights, even those with multiple Paladins and Disc Priests. Yet Shaman can't keep up. That suggests that Shaman issues most likely have 0 to do with your Mastery and everything to do with their toolkit.


I was just using my mastery as a example but each of those other healers masteries are being used to a higher effciency the rshamns are as far as the meters are concerned. I just used mine as I know the aprox % I have on average per fight.

More and more I just think rshamans are being out padded this tier. Rshamans mastery doesn't help padding like other healers masteries.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I was just using my mastery as a example but each of those other healers masteries are being used to a higher effciency the rshamns are as far as the meters are concerned. I just used mine as I know the aprox % I have on average per fight.

More and more I just think rshamans are being out padded this tier. Rshamans mastery doesn't help padding like other healers masteries.


I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge that there is a toolkit issue. It's like you completely ignore the idea. IT MUST BE MASTERY.

But it isn't. It's that they're a square peg being forced into a round hole, and they have nothing to use to deal with the round hole.
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Unless they changed your mastery to be more like the green crystal on ultraxion, and then completely re-did your ascendence cooldown, then maybe mastery could fix the issue shaman are facing (non-existant spread aoe healing tools).

Basically, I'm agreeing with Tiriel (even though she is ally scum now LOL), your current mastery truly has zilch to do with why you are behind this tier, and trying to find convoluted ways to blame your lack of throughput this tier on it, is only a waste of neuron firings...
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Unless they changed your mastery to be more like the green crystal on ultraxion, and then completely re-did your ascendence cooldown, then maybe mastery could fix the issue shaman are facing (non-existant spread aoe healing tools).

Basically, I'm agreeing with Tiriel (even though she is ally scum now LOL), your current mastery truly has zilch to do with why you are behind this tier, and trying to find convoluted ways to blame your lack of throughput this tier on it, is only a waste of neuron firings...


Weirdly, he's a Paladin trying to blame his own class's Mastery for Shaman failings. I don't quite get that, but he's Alliance and as you well know, they're all weird!

Except for me. I only LOOK like I'm Alliance.
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90 Human Paladin
12575
I'm blaming all healers mastery on the hps differences that are being shown. Yes shamans tool kit isn't great for this tier but the their mastery also isn't helping like the other healers masteries because of the fight mechanics.

Someone always has to be the worst healer I'm just trying to point out that the mastery is making the meters look worse for shamans this tier. I find it hard to believe you can't understand that. The other healers are padding thus making shaman healers look worse off then they actually are.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I'm blaming all healers mastery on the hps differences that are being shown. Yes shamans tool kit isn't great for this tier but the their mastery also isn't helping like the other healers masteries because of the fight mechanics.

Someone always has to be the worst healer I'm just trying to point out that the mastery is making the meters look worse for shamans this tier. I find it hard to believe you can't understand that. The other healers are padding thus making shaman healers look worse off then they actually are.


I disagree, because absorb masteries also affect Mistweavers, Resto Druids, and Holy Priests. Yet, they are not having the same issues. They are quite strong, especially in 25 man content. They're holding their own. As I said before, if the other three non-bubble healers are doing well, and it's only Shaman lagging significantly behind, that suggests that the issue is not Mastery and is instead a problem with their actual toolkit.
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90 Human Paladin
12575
I'm blaming all healers mastery on the hps differences that are being shown. Yes shamans tool kit isn't great for this tier but the their mastery also isn't helping like the other healers masteries because of the fight mechanics.

Someone always has to be the worst healer I'm just trying to point out that the mastery is making the meters look worse for shamans this tier. I find it hard to believe you can't understand that. The other healers are padding thus making shaman healers look worse off then they actually are.


I disagree, because absorb masteries also affect Mistweavers, Resto Druids, and Holy Priests. Yet, they are not having the same issues. They are quite strong, especially in 25 man content. They're holding their own. As I said before, if the other three non-bubble healers are doing well, and it's only Shaman lagging significantly behind, that suggests that the issue is not Mastery and is instead a problem with their actual toolkit.


Obviously absorbs are a big part but mistweavers and resto druids masteries are working at 100% effciency during periods of low damage where everyone is near full health where rshamans mastery is doing absolutely nothing thus widening the gap in HPS comparing the two.

Yes the toolkit matters but at the same time it doesn't because just randomly adding another spell or ability to the rshaman seems unlikely to me as 5.2 just came out. You can't change the boss fights. Buffing some heals could make a difference but rshamans are already the top arena healer.

I just don't think HPS matters that much. They have life saving heals the low hps is just a mixture of tool kit and boss fight mechanics. I"m gonna quote a shaman healer Jammonn from another thread as he pointed out exactly what I'm saying.

---- Jammonn
We are in fact, lower in HPS than every other healer, less so in overall healing.

However, we are not gimped enough to be benched quite yet. Especially for progression kills.

I thought I was doing pretty bad because of how low my HPS was vs. other healers in our ToT raids... however, reviewing logs tells more of the full story.

During "clutch" moments on our Meg progression for instance, my healing FAR outshines that of any of our other healers. In essence, I kept the raid from wiping due to my massive burst heals on low hp targets (huray mastery).

Basically, play what you want to play. We are by no means the "best" all around healer right now, but we still have our place, and it's more than what your hearing about mana bots.

Once you get stuff on farm and are just blowing through content though, shammies are probably the weak link as far as heals go currently.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
7640
---- Jammonn
We are in fact, lower in HPS than every other healer, less so in overall healing.

However, we are not gimped enough to be benched quite yet. Especially for progression kills.

I thought I was doing pretty bad because of how low my HPS was vs. other healers in our ToT raids... however, reviewing logs tells more of the full story.

During "clutch" moments on our Meg progression for instance, my healing FAR outshines that of any of our other healers. In essence, I kept the raid from wiping due to my massive burst heals on low hp targets (huray mastery).


interesting that another naysayer shaman is choosing a rsham optimal fight like megaera as an example to show that we "shine.' the fight was obviously tuned with stacking heals in mind and within the game, there are few stack heals as powerful as healing rain and chain heal. remember ultra? healing rain and spam ch. and i can pretty much not even look at what i'm doing except to press the button to phase. why don't this shammy post his thoughts on tortos? or dark animus? i realize gc gave some half baked design philosophy of "we want to highlight strengths but not eliminate weaknesses" in response when questioned why our stack heals were buffed though our problem is in spread healing. too many of you just misunderstand a segment of the rsham community, we aren't asking to top heals in all fights. we just want to be able to spread heal. on a fight like tortos (posted this in another thread), my chain heal consistently heals only one person because the jump distance is so minute. i know i am not the best healer but i always do a decent output and at times, i'm even comparable to my raid's very strong priest healers! blizzard, please look into this issue. i've been thinking of asking my guild to bench me for that fight because it has gotten to the point where i feel bringing me as a healer on that fight is detrimental. this gives me less incentive to continue paying the monthly subscription. the more i rationalize my enjoyment, the least reason i see to continue to put up with this bull!@#$.
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90 Gnome Priest
7845
He also stated the reason the reason they chose these spells was so that pvp balance wouldn't be effected, although a chain heal glyph redesign would've been better . Also remember that mid-patch it is very difficult to make any major changes to a class i.e. new spell design.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I think that this type of fix is the best that we can expect in the middle of a patch like this, especially with PvP issues preventing a straight buff to Purification or them really doing anything with Riptide/GHW/HW/HS. Hopefully, they are looking at some mechanical rebalancing for 5.3 or 5.4. The biggest game changer would be doing something about our mastery, because that is the number one thing that causes us to feel underpowered in PvE while causing PvP balancing concerns that prevent necessary PvE buffs.

That said, I don't think the buff is enough, even to stacked AoE/AoE burst. We are still at best even with Holy Priests, Holy Paladins and Mistweavers if not behind in those ideal situations. They probably need to buff HR/CH/ELW further.
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