Change Death Strike to unmitigated damage?

100 Pandaren Monk
9385
Death Knights seem to be in a pretty good shape at the moment, but I was wondering if it wasn't time for Death Strike to change to healing a % of unmitigated damage taken, instead of a % of mitigated damage taken. Now, I don't think the devs should just flat out buff DS to be like this, obviously a nerf would need to happen to counteract the change, whether decreasing the damage window, or lowering the % of damage taken.

Would this be some ridiculous change, or would it be for the better? It would at least bring it more into line with the other tank's AM abilities, since DS is currently the only one not counting armor mitigation and abosrbs.

Ideas?
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
Need to see a bit more of this tier's heroics to make any judgement.

There was nothing in t14 that DS wasn't good enough for, and only a couple things you really even needed to time it for. It's looking in a couple fights like it *might* be the tiniest bit lacking for t15, but that could just as easily be current gear level as anything else.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
14270
To be honest?
DK tanks are in a amazing spot right now, the only thing I would ask for is a 30 second cd button that forces our blood worms to burst, seeing a 8-10 stack worm burst while the raid is at full health while like 4 seconds ago they were all under 75% health is just painful.
Edited by Salloreon on 3/24/2013 9:55 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Monk
19140
Only if I get a button to eat my GotO orbs without moving. ;p
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
03/24/2013 12:14 AMPosted by Policies
It would at least bring it more into line with the other tank's AM abilities, since DS is currently the only one not counting armor mitigation and abosrbs.

Er, what? Aside from thinking you had a bit of a typo, what makes you think that a paladin, monk, warrior, or druid's AM doesn't count armor?

Blocking is a flat % reduction, factored in with all other % reductions when an attack's caculation is done.

ShoR is the same as block, effectively.

Dodge is dodge. Okay, this one doesn't, sure.

Parry is parry, Shuffle is, in terms of when an attack lands, the same as block.

So 1.5 of the other tank's AM tools ignores armor and absorbs. Why does that matter to you?

If DS doesn't factor in damage that's absorbed for its calculations, I would arguably call that a bug honestly, but beyond that Death Strike is, for all intents and purposes functionally identical to every other AM tool:

a 20% heal, with a mastery buffed heal (I have seen >100% numbers thrown around a few times, so I'm just going to go with 100% shield from Mastery) for another 20% brings you to 40%.

That's about what a Paladin's ShoR does at around ~i475 or so (memory may be a bit foggy).

Block and Crit Block are always 30% or 60%, with Shield Block up I'll take the easy way out of the math and average it at a 45% reduction.

I don't know enough about monks or druids at level cap right now to extrapolate on them, but I imagine the dodge from Savage Defense and Parry + Stagger from Shuffle works out to be about equal as well.

Just seems like a pointless change that they'd end up doing for all but Bears as well...

Note: The number differences here are entirely because of made-up numbers at random gear intervals, it isn't any reason to go assuming classes are OP/UP, etc.
Edited by Darpalta on 3/24/2013 3:38 PM PDT
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
Darp, the difference is that armor and the DS absorb actively devalue DS itself.

Blood DK mitigation works against itself, effectively. No other tank AM does this.

I don't know if that's Foibles' point but...
Edited by Kangamooster on 3/24/2013 4:12 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
If Absorbs do then you have a point, but they're going to be balanced around Armor's effect either way.
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90 Human Death Knight
8900
No, I think: it would cause double-dipping and more complex math. Not to mention possible issues with getting too high.
(Shield of 200k, take boss hit for 500k, drop to 25% health, get huge shield for a later hit.)

I think: it would create more problems than it would solve. DKs are the only tank whose mastery is an absorb and is based upon damage taken. (If we ignore Vengeance, that is.)

Warriors do get an absorb with SBarrier, but the strength of it does not vary with any other action; the only way they can game it higher is by casting it with more rage or with more Vengeance. And I don't think: it can be increased by casting it again before expiring. Unlike Death Strike.

It might not be elegant as-is, but reworking it is outside the scope of this discussion. Aside, we typically wait for something to cause problems before fixing it.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9385
I don't know if that's Foibles' point but...


Yep.

Er, what? Aside from thinking you had a bit of a typo, what makes you think that a paladin, monk, warrior, or druid's AM doesn't count armor?


Guard/ Gift of the Ox, Shield Barrier, Word of Glory, and Frenzied Regen are all based off vengeance, which is unmitigated damage. DS is based off actual damage taken.

(Shield of 200k, take boss hit for 500k, drop to 25% health, get huge shield for a later hit.)


Other tanks already work like that. Other tanks aren't punished for avoidance however- if a DK gets a dodge streak then takes a huge hit, they don't necessarily have any extra DS healing to prevent some of the huge hit. If the other tanks get a dodge streak, they still get the damage they avoided factored into their AM abilities.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340


Er, what? Aside from thinking you had a bit of a typo, what makes you think that a paladin, monk, warrior, or druid's AM doesn't count armor?


Guard/ Gift of the Ox, Shield Barrier, Word of Glory, and Frenzied Regen are all based off vengeance, which is unmitigated damage. DS is based off actual damage taken.


Then why not just ask for something to scale with attack power instead of unmitigated damage? That's the simpler way to do it still.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
17795
Heroic Sha tanking was the only time I felt the unmitigated scaled DS hurting, when I needed to put up a good shield for lesser thrashes, if I had taken the swing before thrash, I'd put up a solid 3-400k shield, if I hadnt taken the swing, I'd have to use another Cooldown on top of the double DS to survive the burst potential, outside of that, DS has been very reliable.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9385
Then why not just ask for something to scale with attack power instead of unmitigated damage? That's the simpler way to do it still.


Why does it matter if it's scaling from the source instead of the result?
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
03/24/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Policies
Then why not just ask for something to scale with attack power instead of unmitigated damage? That's the simpler way to do it still.


Why does it matter if it's scaling from the source instead of the result?


Just easier to use an existing mechanic instead of creating or changing another to function more or less identical to that other mechanic that's already available to use.

Less chances for bugs and the like. Although, don't Blood Worms scale with AP?
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90 Tauren Monk
13135
Dodge is dodge. Okay, this one doesn't, sure.

Parry is parry

Slight correction, but armor reduces the amount of damage SD/Shuffle parry reduce in just the same way it reduces block/ShoR damage reduction.
SD is (for a 1.5s swing speed) 1.9 hits removed on average. If those hits were going to do less damage to begin with, then obviously avoiding them is worth less damage reduced, compared to FR which would heal the same regardless of having 0 or 75% armor.

Avoidance works against block/ShoR/DS (or rather, benefits SD/Shuffle), but you'd be hard-pressed to find someone excited enough about that to stack dodge/parry.

So really, FR/Barrier/WoG/Guard/GotO are the only ones that don't diminish with armor, and those aren't as core to those classes as DS is to DKs (in that you wouldn't get far at all trying to use just those, outside of maybe Barrier). The DS absorb weakening itself sure, but the simpler idea there would be to have DS count absorbed damage... and even then, you'd need to show that it's necessary other than "fairness"
Edited by Brewhahanss on 3/24/2013 6:32 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Then why not just ask for something to scale with attack power instead of unmitigated damage? That's the simpler way to do it still.


We could ask for it, however we can safely assume they want it this way (based off damage taken directly, not AP) purely because flavour.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
Dodge is dodge. Okay, this one doesn't, sure.

Parry is parry

Slight correction, but armor reduces the amount of damage SD/Shuffle parry reduce in just the same way it reduces block/ShoR damage reduction.


You're... completely missing what I was saying in that portion of the post. I was purely talking about which AM tools scaled with Armor's Damage Reduction. Avoidance obviously does not. I wasn't referring to Dodge as a stat, but the Dodge coming from Savage Defense.



So really, FR/Barrier/WoG/Guard/GotO are the only ones that DO diminish with armor,


Fixed.
Edited by Darpalta on 3/24/2013 7:10 PM PDT
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100 Pandaren Monk
9385
Darpalta- do you not understand how vengeance works? It gives ap based on damage taken before reductions which is why those AM abilities aren't affected by armor.

DS scales only off the damage that lowers your health, which is why avoidance, stance reductions, and armor reduce the healing DS does.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14965
So really, FR/Barrier/WoG/Guard/GotO are the only ones that DO diminish with armor,

Fixed.


Mrrrr? You fixed it to be wrong. FR/Barrier/WoG/Guard/GotO scale with Vengeance, which is unaffected by armor.

In fact, armor makes absorbs better.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
14270
Only if I get a button to eat my GotO orbs without moving. ;p


Then you would have to give up avert harm or w/e the cd monks have that help reduce some raid damage.

The point of giving a blood worm burst option wouldn't be to help increase dk self healing but provide us with a raid cooldown, something that only dk tanks do not have.
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90 Tauren Monk
13135
You're... completely missing what I was saying in that portion of the post. I was purely talking about which AM tools scaled with Armor's Damage Reduction. Avoidance obviously does not. I wasn't referring to Dodge as a stat, but the Dodge coming from Savage Defense.

Every single one of those tools you listed will reduce less total damage (the same % of damage, but less total damage) if armor is increased and everything else is held constant. In that area, your wording made a distinction between avoidance and block in terms of what scales with armor that doesn't really exist.

see:
03/24/2013 03:38 PMPosted by Darpalta
So 1.5 of the other tank's AM tools ignores armor and absorbs.

Presumably, the complaint is that DS gets weaker as armor goes up (because obviously, it gets stronger as armor goes down, and why would you complain about that?).

Fixed.

Against the same target, FR will heal for exactly the same amount regardless of if I have 0 armor, or if I have 175110. Obviously, in the case where I have more armor, that FR heal is a significantly larger portion of incoming damage than in the case where I have 0.

So no, FR and its ilk do not diminish with increasing armor.
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