Change Death Strike to unmitigated damage?

90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
DS scales only off the damage that lowers your health, which is why avoidance, stance reductions, and armor reduce the healing DS does.

It's also why we can use stamina as a mitigation stat in addition to EH, and it's why we're allowed to double dib on magic damage.

To be honest, I don't think it's that big of a problem. A far bigger issue, I think, is how reactive it is.

Monks can stagger a huge hit.
Paladins can get their full SotR bonus.
Warriors can SBlock for a guaranteed 30%.
Druids passively take less physical damage.

Death Knights get a puny shield (about 11% of my maximum health right now) unless we've been taking a lot of damage. This means our damage taken tends to oscillate - we'll take a huge pile of damage, then heal it back and take nothing for a little while, then when the shield breaks we'll take another huge pile, etc.

If I had my preference, Blood Shield would provide a flat "all physical damage dealt to you is reduced by X for five seconds" effect, which could stack with itself but not roll. This would really help dampen the swings in our health pool while still leaving us with the thematic "take hits and come back stronger" mechanic.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340

Every single one of those tools you listed will reduce less total damage (the same % of damage, but less total damage) if armor is increased and everything else is held constant. In that area, your wording made a distinction between avoidance and block in terms of what scales with armor that doesn't really exist.


Total damage is irrelevant. Entirely. These abilities will do the same thing regardless of how hard you're getting hit. The numbers themselves may be lower if you have more passive mitigation, but that is entirely irrelevant as the abilities' effects are not lowered in any way.

Yeah, I derped on the other abilities, posting between pulls mid-raid makes me hasty.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9195
it's why we're allowed to double dib on magic damage.


DS is affected by magic damage, as is Guard/GotO, FR, SB, and WoG.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
DS is affected by magic damage, as is Guard/GotO, FR, SB, and WoG.

SotR, SBlock, SD, and Stagger aren't, though. We gain more effective physical mitigation - in addition to our heal increasing - with magic damage.

Additionally, with the change to vengeance granted by specials, including magic strikes, I think DKs win anyway.

On the flip side, our absorb works against the size of future absorbs.

I don't think it's the end of the world.
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
I'm not going to speak for everyone else but I don't disagree with your main point, Darp; DK mitigation is fine as is. While Death Strike's mechanics do actively work against it/more armor/avoidance, it's not a big deal because in the end you still do take less damage.

It might be cause for very future concern (e.g. T16H) since it will mean DKs scale less well with larger physical hits as compared to Warriors and Druids, who will be wackily powerful, but it's not as much of an issue as Brewmaster scaling :P
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
It might be cause for very future concern (e.g. T16H) since it will mean DKs scale less well with larger physical hits as compared to Warriors and Druids, who will be wackily powerful, but it's not as much of an issue as Brewmaster scaling :P

Watching a Brewmaster with that stacking dodge/stacking mastery on dodge proc trinket tank two packs of trash is a little bit horrifying.

"So, uh, are you... taking any damage?"
"Nah."
"..."
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
Watching a Brewmaster with that stacking dodge/stacking mastery on dodge proc trinket tank two packs of trash is a little bit horrifying.
That's not the issue.

The issue is once you get into 25H content bosses will 2 shot you even with Shuffle up unless you're stacking mass amounts of Mastery and Stam to the actual exclusion (almost entirely) of haste and crit.

E.G. 10H Horridon melees for 250k on my Warrior. On a Brewmaster it would be doing around 350k. You can safely multiply those numbers by 1.5 for 25H (technically a bit more than that, probably around 1.75).
Edited by Kangamooster on 3/25/2013 12:26 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Mmm, I hadn't considered that for monks. Can they keep up shuffle all the time?
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100 Pandaren Monk
9195
Yeah, but when you're taking huge hits you can still be burst down.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/x3ff2hzrc1hasdtk/details/8/?s=347&e=969

Average melee hit 157k, average Triple Puncture 345k.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
03/25/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Krinu
It might be cause for very future concern (e.g. T16H) since it will mean DKs scale less well with larger physical hits as compared to Warriors and Druids, who will be wackily powerful, but it's not as much of an issue as Brewmaster scaling :P

Watching a Brewmaster with that stacking dodge/stacking mastery on dodge proc trinket tank two packs of trash is a little bit horrifying.

"So, uh, are you... taking any damage?"
"Nah."
"..."


Insert infamous Jessy Ventura "I ain't got time to bleed" quote here?
Edited by Feandel on 3/25/2013 2:12 PM PDT
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
Mmm, I hadn't considered that for monks. Can they keep up shuffle all the time?
Yes, even at low gear levels Shuffle is designed to have 100% uptime. It doesn't particularly gain in damage reduction until you do stack mass amounts of mastery though. For all intents and purposes, Brewmaster mastery is EHP; the goal for most 25H monks is to stack mastery to the high heavens so they don't get one shot, and just PB as much as possible to get rid of the heavy stagger they're going to be taking. They're inevitably going to have at least 3k haste in just normal 522 gear, so they do have enough haste to do everything just fine.

DKs have the same problem, btw, it's just not as pronounced and you can effectively stack the hell out of stamina to survive it. It really just depends on a big avoidance streak and then a couple big hits in a row. For example, if you avoided several times on H Horridon, then you got a Dire Call+Puncture+melee lined up, you could probably get Purgatory'd - and this doesn't happen infrequently either, it's actually pretty much every other Dire Call that this happens.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Yeah, but when you're taking huge hits you can still be burst down.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/x3ff2hzrc1hasdtk/details/8/?s=347&e=969

Average melee hit 157k, average Triple Puncture 345k.

In 10m normal, my average melee hit taken was 115k or so, and my average triple puncture was about 210k.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-extoipiby299swyj/details/9/?s=5480&e=6114
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
In 10m normal, my average melee hit taken was 115k or so, and my average triple puncture was about 210k.
You significantly outgear normal Horridon.

10N has never, ever, EVER been a tank check. Ever. Like ever since the current format (Wrath 10N) was introduced.

I'm hesitant to call 10H tank checks even since Dire Call+Puncture+melee combo only hits for like 700k.

You SIGNIFICANTLY underestimate the amount of damage a tank takes in 25H. It's pretty damn painful on 25N alone. Even on 10H I can do stupid things like spam HS or Executes with no defensives up, on 25H I would be dead if I didn't have Shield Wall up while Execute spamming for all of 6 seconds.
Edited by Kangamooster on 3/25/2013 3:10 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
Makes me wonder if they should add something to allow tank damage on 25 to be more in line with 10. A healing taken (not including self-healing) tank-specific debuff or something perhaps to offset having 2-3.5x the healers.

But Heroic Horridon hurts, even on 10...

I mis-time a ShoR and I drop dead. No questions asked.
Edited by Darpalta on 3/25/2013 6:38 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
17795
Makes me wonder if they should add something to allow tank damage on 25 to be more in line with 10. A healing taken (not including self-healing) tank-specific debuff or something perhaps to offset having 2-3.5x the healers.


You mean something when a 25man tank gets 1 shot, that he survives?
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Kanga, I wasn't trying to undermine the amount of damage taken on 25H, merely pointing out that DKs get hit pretty hard, too.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
03/25/2013 09:30 PMPosted by Azane
Makes me wonder if they should add something to allow tank damage on 25 to be more in line with 10. A healing taken (not including self-healing) tank-specific debuff or something perhaps to offset having 2-3.5x the healers.


You mean something when a 25man tank gets 1 shot, that he survives?


No... I mean making it so that the increased healers in a 25man don't warrant a boss hitting damn near twice as hard on 25 compared to 10.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Like, say, increasing tank health by a factor of 2.5 in 25m raids over 10m raids?
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100 Pandaren Monk
9195
That might actually let then use the triage and attrition healing model they talked about so much
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
9735
Honestly I like the way 25m tank damage is. There is a reason I am exclusively a 25H raider, and the tank damage intake is pretty much it. I've done 10H, but it's just not as fun to me. I wanna be where the content hits hardest. I don't really wanna see any changes to tank damage in 25m.
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