Pallys Unite! Fair CC (especially fear) break

(Locked)

90 Draenei Paladin
3095
Good Day, Everyone! :)

Please. I don't want to hear from the flamers that I'm "whining". Anyone with a Paladin knows what I'm talking about. And Locks will especially not want ANY changes that will take away their "invulnerability". But I'm always reading the latest from Blizz about how they are trying to "balance" PvP, and all my friends show me all their AWESOME new abilities and ways to put together their new spells and talents that give one massive advantage or another. I truly feel Paladins have been left in the cold on things. But I know many other classes MUST feel frustrated about Fear.

EVERY, and I mean every, CC has counter-measures... except Fear. To give an ability to a class that has NO cooldown, that, despite diminishing returns, can be re-cast immediately after the diminishing returns expire, with no penalty, AND doesn't break on life-drains that sap 25% or more of your health... etc. It's absurd. I'm running into DKs that have immunity to stuns. A druid can change forms instantly to break slows and dazes. The list goes on. But Pallys have one thing to break fear... the same trinket EVERYONE has (and humans get for free). Hand of Freedom and Emancipate are equal and equally useless. I don't even care about being rooted cuz I can heal while rooted and cast my ranged attacks. I can waste an ENTIRE talent tier to be able to cast HoF twice, which breaks virtually no meaningful CCs. That's it. DKs can yank people in to melee range. I can run (slowly) up to melee range, only to be feared, which can't be broken, by a class that moves quickly AND can teleport two different ways to 40yd range? THEN the one chance I get close enough to stun and attack, their minion stuns me. And the 2 minute CD trinket I had to use earlier is useless.

I've read so many post by Blizz about "balancing" PvP. Pallys have been nerfed on every patch the last year, while I see new, fun abilities being introduced all around. I see forum post after another about Ret basically being useless in PvP, and it is. I'm a holy warrior, for heaven's sake (pardon the pun) and I can't cleanse a curse?!?

I can't help but get the feeling that the Blizz CEO is a Lock who has a standing order to make Fear invulnerable. EVERY other CC in the game can be broken by one thing or another (not just a 2 min CD trinket that everyone has). I'm not crying... I'm just starting to not care to even try. I've spent the last two months making and re-making macros, changing talents, different glyphs, EVERY thing available to my class, to eek out every millisecond of ability and be more effective, and it's just pointless. I finally went to Holy Shock just so I could attack from range with SOME hope of doing some damage and surviving before the next Fear hits me. I'm not saying make Pallys OP again (cuz we have been in the past). But, frankly, there's nothing special about the class anymore. But I know it's not just Pallys. Fear is just plain OP by itself. No CD. Doesn't break on many HEAVY damage DOTs. This is ridiculous, Blizz. Do you really not see this? Anyone who agrees, please post and add your voice and HOPEFULLY we'll see some balance on this ability. Anyone who disagrees, well, I respectfully disagree in advance. An not-so-deep-down, I know you know it's true. But really, do you want an ability that doesn't even make you have to play the game? I feel no shame in losing to something that can't be removed by anything. But you should feel embarrassed to "need" it to win. Let's get on equal footing, then let our skills speak.

And one quick note... am I the only one who misses the old talent tree? I LOVED picking and choosing what *I* wanted for my own play style! I loved spending 20 minutes making that decision to put that hard-earned talent point where it felt good and fit my play style. And JUST when I hit the level where I could start including cross-spec talents, Blizz "simplified" the talent tree. It made me feel like I was a little kid who couldn't decide for himself what he wanted and what worked best. We CAN think for ourselves, Blizz. And this game shouldn't be about over-simplification. It's supposed to be deep and rich, and make us feel in control of our own "WoW destiny" (not meaning to get cheesy... just what I feel). At the same time they made the talent tree more "manageable" for us, we got Pokemon pet battles introduced. Do they REALLY think it's 10 year olds playing this game? I'm sure there are some, but (I think) most of us are teens and adults who truly appreciate the depth of this game. So please add your intelligent thoughts and feelings about this, and if enough of us who actually care will respond here, maybe the wonderful, hard-working folks at Blizzard will listen. Thanks for reading, and thanks for your time!
Edited by Klethazeroth on 3/24/2013 3:26 AM PDT
90 Tauren Paladin
16365
Male draenei if I've ever saw one!
90 Human Paladin
6780
I'd give my left nut to be able to break fears without using my trinket.
90 Human Paladin
5660
I agree with what you have to say about fear. I do not think you're whining either so just ignore the flame posts to come. I hope blizzard changes the game to make it more interactive in that fear, or loss of character, should not be sole reason I lose a battle as a paladin. Now does it play a factor? Yes I think it should have its place but for cc to dominate the playing field is bar far absurd and not for anyone. Its only a simple way to prevent players from doing damage. I'm just asking for a cool down on fear as I know most suggestions like these are ignored by Blizz. :-/
90 Human Paladin
8990
I'd give my left nut to be able to break fears without using my trinket.


I'd give my middle one
90 Blood Elf Paladin
4325
Fear: Fear the Enemy to Africa. Damage caused WILL NEVER BREAK THE EFFECT! 80% Chance to also fear them all the way back from Africa.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
4325
If I manage to rebuke fear, slam the lock until lockout expires, burn burst macro and use fist of Justice at end of the rebuke lock out, I have managed to give the warlock a wild thrashing. I'm just kidding, he trinkets and deathcoils me and then fears me.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
The last thing WoW PvP needs is more ways to break fears. However, AoE fears last too long -- when Fear and Poly were reduced from 10 sec to 8 sec, for some reason Howl and Psychic Scream stayed at 8 sec. I suggest these be reduced to 6 sec. The devs want to reduce instant CC, after all.

Tremor is too strong due to the talent Totem Restoration (reduces the CD to around 30 sec). To offset the AoE fear nerf, Tremor should be removed from this talent. It'd feel less countery with a 1 min CD.

The paladin class doesn't need a fear break, but you'd sit in fears less with the changes I suggested, assuming you don't play with a shaman of course. In the meantime you might want to try Glyph of Turn Evil because it's amazing against Psyfiend.
Edited by Hafleur on 3/24/2013 9:29 AM PDT
90 Human Paladin
3555
I'd just like it to break on damage and not last so long, especially since it puts you so far out of battle.
90 Draenei Paladin
3095
@Gärrëtt: I'm still lmao at your post! :D Thanks for the input so far, everyone. It's nice to know I'm not alone. The more I think about it, the more I just can't wrap my head around it. There's no CD on this ability, and 1.7 secs is no big deal for cast time. Even with diminishing returns, what does that give us? A one-second window between my 14th consecutive second of running around feared and the reset on the diminishing returns, and watching it start all over again. The fact that SO much damage can be received via life-drain, and still it doesn't break. Honestly, I don't mind fighting head to head with the best of anyone! But to give an already very powerful class the ability to make it so they don't even have to fight? And on a side note, what are Rets supposed to do (about anything)? So many great abilities got introduced to other classes at high levels. A DK can do that thing where they pull you back into melee (which, btw, works on me while Hand of Freedom is active. Yet another thing that HoF is useless against). Rets have SO few utilities to get people into melee (Burden of Guilt is nice, but it's pretty easy to break and doesn't stop/slow ranged escapes like disengage and teleports), and what was the most recent nerf to the Ret spec?... the loss of 100% chance of crit against demons and undead with Exorcism! I'm kinda not kidding when I said I think the CEO of Blizz is a Lock and stays up at night coming up with ways to make locks unbeatable by Pallys. But it's not just fear being OP. I feel there's so little that's special about our class, that sets Paladins apart as great fighters. Some will say "oh, nothing special? Who else has an invulnerability shield and an instaheal?" Yeah... with 5 and 10 minute CDs. Divine Shield lets us break fear, once in 5 minutes. It's meant to be an emergency life saver, not a trinket ability. And now Warriors can punch through it! It's just very frustrating. Try getting into a BG and getting attacked by 2 people with fear/sleep/polymorph abilities. I might as well just stop and go get a cup of coffee, rather than watch my character run around and/or stand there sleeping over and over while life drain damages away without breaking the ability, or on the off chance damage breaks it, I get to blow my 3 minute CD attack for 1.7 seconds until the next fear comes.

If Blizz isn't going to let Hand of Freedom/Emancipate break fear/sleep (and I honestly think that is THE fair solution), then simply make fear ACTUALLY break on damage, period, just like every other similar CC. And give it a 15 second CD like our sleep. That's all I ask. Make it fair and FUN to play, letting the players actually show their skills against each other. Thanks again everyone for the support! Let's keep it coming. Can't hurt to try... Blizz has a history of nerfing everything eventually... seems like fear should be #1 on the list of next to nerf.
Edited by Klethazeroth on 3/24/2013 12:50 PM PDT
90 Draenei Paladin
3095
And for heaven's sake, give us some range on Rebuke! Just 10 yards is all I ask (but I'll take 20). I see a cast coming, and I have to run TOWARD the bomb that's about to blow up to avoid getting hurt? Fear interrupts our spellcasting from 30 freaking yards away with no CD! Rebuke has a 15 second CD, and I have to be in your face to even use it. C'mon Blizz, throw us a bone here!
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
03/24/2013 12:44 PMPosted by Klethazeroth
and what was the most recent nerf to the Ret spec?... the loss of 100% chance of crit against demons and undead with Exorcism! I'm kinda not kidding when I said I think the CEO of Blizz is a Lock and stays up at night coming up with ways to make locks unbeatable by Pallys.

oh please, please, please be trolling
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14040
Of all the classes to be so susceptible to Fear, I think Paladins are the silliest. We're supposed to be courageous justice-mongers, right? What's courageous about being helpless for the duration of a Fear? :[

Maybe make a passive for Paladins that makes it twice as easy for damage done to us while we're Feared to break the CC.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Of all the classes to be so susceptible to Fear, I think Paladins are the silliest. We're supposed to be courageous justice-mongers, right? What's courageous about being helpless for the duration of a Fear? :[

agree it doesn't make sense from a lore perspective, but that's not a good enough reason to mess with balance this far down the road

btw i love your transmog, Cadet. very classy
90 Draenei Paladin
3095
oh please, please, please be trolling


Why? What's so "trolling" about that comment? "Exorcism" by it's very nature is forcibly banishing demons. Taking away the 100% crit just makes it into another "magical power beam" that isn't special at all. And as for my CEO of Blizz comments, it's call sarcasm. But it sure feels like they've had it in for Pallys for the last 6 or 8 months, IMO.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
03/24/2013 03:10 PMPosted by Klethazeroth
Why? What's so "trolling" about that comment? "Exorcism" by it's very nature is forcibly banishing demons.

because it's not important at all to balance. at best this is a pet peeve of yours

But it sure feels like they've had it in for Pallys for the last 6 or 8 months, IMO.

1. holy was hands down the best healer in the first PvP season of MoP
2. ret sucked during this time, that's true, but was buffed a ton and seems pretty good in arena this season
3. ret continues to suck in rbg's, but most melee aren't wanted for rbg's. the devs don't have it in for us
90 Draenei Paladin
3095
Of all the classes to be so susceptible to Fear, I think Paladins are the silliest. We're supposed to be courageous justice-mongers, right? What's courageous about being helpless for the duration of a Fear? :[

agree it doesn't make sense from a lore perspective, but that's not a good enough reason to mess with balance this far down the road


We USED to have immunity to fear with Judgment of Justice. And if the classes don't have the abilities according to the lore, what's the point in having classes. Let's just play Call of Duty and point and shoot instead. As for messing with balance, Blizz claims they are always looking at balance and adjusting. I just frankly don't see ANY balance whatsoever with this ability. It's straight up OP. If you feel it would be un-balancing to make HoF and Emancipate do something useful, then simply go straight to the source... Nerf Fear with a 15 second CD (like OUR sleep, and every single other CC in the game that has 15, 30, 1 min, and even 2 min CDs). ZERO CD and virtually no cost to cast that doesn't break on damage usually (or EVER on DOTs like life drain) that keeps me constantly out of melee range with no recourse is simply OP. I don't see how it could even continue to remain unchanged and expect PvP to be balanced in any way.

Thanks for your comments and input though. We might not be on the same page on this, Hafleur, but I appreciate you taking the time to respond, but I get the nagging feeling that you are a Lock mainly and you really don't want to see Fear nerfed. Saying that the "last" thing the game needs is more ways to break fear... l just can't imagine really anyone right now of any class who isn't sick of running around feared for half the fight. I'd have to say we (and every class) should have ONE way to break fear/sleep/polymorph more often then once in two minutes. I'm not asking for immunity, just something that makes the Lock actually have to fight with some degree of skill. They already have an arsenal of ways to get to range when they need, massive damage, and self-healing. Like they need to never get hit too? I personally would be ashamed to have it be that my opponent couldn't even put up a fight... what's the point in winning a duel that way?
90 Draenei Paladin
3095
because it's not important at all to balance. at best this is a pet peeve of yours

But it sure feels like they've had it in for Pallys for the last 6 or 8 months, IMO.

1. holy was hands down the best healer in the first PvP season of MoP
2. ret sucked during this time, that's true, but was buffed a ton and seems pretty good in arena this season
3. ret continues to suck in rbg's, but most melee aren't wanted for rbg's. the devs don't have it in for us


Actually it was a comment about balance. We're talking mainly about Locks here, and our lack of defenses against Fear. The one balancing thing we might have was the ability to always hit their minions for double damage with Exorcism, and for no particular reason it was just taken away from a spell that by its very nature SHOULD cause extra harm to demons/undead.

And I can't say that Ret was "buffed a ton". They did get a couple nice bonuses with the last patch. But still, if you can never get into melee range with a melee based character, you will die, every time.

And again, please don't take my disagreement with you negatively. I do appreciate you getting in on the thread. The more we talk about it, the more Blizz has a chance to read the pros and cons and maybe do something. Thanks!
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Actually it was a comment about balance. We're talking mainly about Locks here, and our lack of defenses against Fear. The one balancing thing we might have was the ability to always hit their minions for double damage with Exorcism, and for no particular reason it was just taken away from a spell that by its very nature SHOULD cause extra harm to demons/undead.

paladins lost a small advantage in what is still an unwinnable duel. so what? for the most part PvP isn't balanced around 1v1 and warlock vs. paladin in a 1v1 is such a small part of whether or not paladin is competitive in PvP

And I can't say that Ret was "buffed a ton". They did get a couple nice bonuses with the last patch. But still, if you can never get into melee range with a melee based character, you will die, every time.

out of curiosity, how long have you been playing WoW, how long have you been PvP'ing, and how long have you been playing this character? i'm not trying to attack you here. i might even be able to help you out (not to sound cocky)
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
The more we talk about it, the more Blizz has a chance to read the pros and cons and maybe do something. Thanks!

the developers don't usually read the class forums. if you want a chance at them noticing your thread, you should post it on the damage dealing forum or arena forum. but if you do, i warn you the responses from players there will be harsh
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