Honor weapons versus PvE breakpoint

100 Orc Warrior
14665
Having a discussion with guildies, and none of us knew the answer. What iLvl does a weapon need to be to beat out the PvP power on the honor weapons?
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7280
There is no PvE weapon that can now beat a PvP weapon. Keep your PvE out of my PvP.
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90 Undead Rogue
3140
No such thing, with no pvp power you get no resilience penetration, neutering your damage.
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90 Orc Warrior
14115
There is no PvE weapon that can now beat a PvP weapon. Keep your PvE out of my PvP.


No such thing, with no pvp power you get no resilience penetration, neutering your damage.

I'm doubtful a heroic thunder-forged 541 iLvl weapon wouldn't be better than an honor weapon. There is a point where weapon damage will be more worthwhile than PvP power. I'm not sure when, but that is the point of this thread.
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90 Undead Rogue
3140
03/25/2013 12:16 AMPosted by Twansition
There is no PvE weapon that can now beat a PvP weapon. Keep your PvE out of my PvP.


No such thing, with no pvp power you get no resilience penetration, neutering your damage.

I'm doubtful a heroic thunder-forged 541 iLvl weapon wouldn't be better than an honor weapon. There is a point where weapon damage will be more worthwhile than PvP power. I'm not sure when, but that is the point of this thread.


Oh honor, yeah you can beat an honor weapon with a throne of thunder weapon, but one is WAY harder to get. I thought he meant just pvp weapons. Conquest weapons on the other hand no chance.

The current throne of thunder epic dagger i forget the name, is about even with my upgraded t1 daggers.
Edited by Ripcage on 3/25/2013 12:53 AM PDT
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100 Human Warrior
12875
You could say that "a pve weapon is better if its top end damage is X% better than the pvp weapon" (X being the amount of pvp power in the pvp weapon). Example:

PvP weapon has 20% pvp power and 10k damage.
Mortal strike will hit for 10k x 1.75 x 1.2 = 21k

PvE weapon has 0% pvp power and 12k damage.
MS will hit for 12k x 1.75 x 1.0 = 21k

Unfortunately is not that simple.
Some skills (execute, shockwave, dragons deep wounds, tclap) don't scale with weapon damage.
That means that you can't accurately calculate the exact point when a pve weapon is better.

IMO, unless you have an obscene pve weapon (heroic at least) you should stick to pvp weapons.
You may have and edge on sustained damage because your MS/OP/Slams will hit harder, but I don't think its worth the risk of missing a kill because of a weak execute.
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100 Orc Warrior
14665
Well, one of the things that kicked off the whole conversation was us looking at Zerat, Malakk's Soulburning Greatsword versus Malevolent Gladiator's Greatsword and seeing the almost 9500 damage difference in top ends. That's a significant difference, and I don't know if 18% PvP power can make that up for the bulk of your attacks. Would it even matter if your execute was technically weaker if your slam or MS mangled them just as hard?
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90 Undead Rogue
6385
Well, one of the things that kicked off the whole conversation was us looking at Zerat, Malakk's Soulburning Greatsword versus Malevolent Gladiator's Greatsword and seeing the almost 9500 damage difference in top ends. That's a significant difference, and I don't know if 18% PvP power can make that up for the bulk of your attacks. Would it even matter if your execute was technically weaker if your slam or MS mangled them just as hard?


Hmmm, good point there however whats the Tyrannical equivalent?
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100 Orc Warrior
14665
Tyrannical Gladiator's Greatsword is the Tyrannical version, but with it's 6000+ PvP power, we sort of figured it was at the very least matching the 522 weapons, and probably a good bit better.

The conversation was about the honor weapons, and if there was any reason for anyone that had access to the 522 weapons to even bother getting the honor weapons. Then it moved to wondering if the ToT LFR weapons might be better than them, or even upgraded sha touched weapons with the gems.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
11820
491+ is better than the honor weapons.
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100 Human Warrior
12875
Well, one of the things that kicked off the whole conversation was us looking at Zerat, Malakk's Soulburning Greatsword versus Malevolent Gladiator's Greatsword and seeing the almost 9500 damage difference in top ends. That's a significant difference, and I don't know if 18% PvP power can make that up for the bulk of your attacks. Would it even matter if your execute was technically weaker if your slam or MS mangled them just as hard?


In this case the 522 weapon has over 60% more damage than the pvp weapon, much more secondary stats, strength and a socket.

Don't even bother to get the pvp one.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
0
No such thing, with no pvp power you get no resilience penetration, neutering your damage.


That is not how Resil/Power works..

PvP power does not "penetrate" resilience, it only modifies the damage your character does to other players. PvE weapons can still be better than PvP weapons.
Edited by Nakkiel on 3/25/2013 3:24 PM PDT
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90 Undead Warrior
5415
Wowinsider had a topic about this very thing recently and it was shown that pve weapons can beat the pvp ones.(throne of thunder ones anyway)

They also have sockets for pvp power gems which reduces the gap even more.
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90 Undead Rogue
3140
03/25/2013 03:23 PMPosted by Nakkiel
No such thing, with no pvp power you get no resilience penetration, neutering your damage.


That is not how Resil/Power works..

PvP power does not "penetrate" resilience, it only modifies the damage your character does to other players. PvE weapons can still be better than PvP weapons.


Ok first off how exactly does it modify it? By reducing the amount of protection resilience gives contested against pvp power. So the pvp power damage is passing through the resilience protection.

A whlie ago WoW had armor pen. Armor granted a certain % damage reduction against physical damage (just like resilience does vs all damage types) and armor pen % allowed more physical damage against the armor rating of the target. Does this sound familiar yet?
It should because it is the exact same mechanic with one only effecting the physical and the other effecting all damage types.

So what exactly is your definition of penetration?

I use the actual definition
pen·e·trate
[pen-i-treyt] Show IPA verb, pen·e·trat·ed, pen·e·trat·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to pierce or pass into or through: <--- This is exactly what pvp power does when it bypasses resilience protection bonus depending on %

I suppose your next post will be trying to nitpicking and say it does not penetrate it, but bypasses it.
Edited by Ripcage on 3/25/2013 4:21 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
0
PvP power is a self-damage modifier on other players. No matter how much armor or resilience they have, the modifier is always the same amount. Resilience reduction is calculated after Power increase, there is no penetrating, bypassing or anything of the sort going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GEj-WEe31Y

Whether it's "nitpicky" or not, it's an important differentiation to make to avoid confusion amongst people who think Power "negates" Resilience.
Edited by Nakkiel on 3/25/2013 4:57 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
3975
Final Tier Heroic PvE weapons will ALWAYS beat out pvp weapons in damage, you will lose a good chunk of resilience though.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
5460
pvp power doesn't penetrate resil. it simply amplifies how much dmg you do to players.

johnny hit for 40k on steve. Johnny had 50% pvp power, so he hit for 60k. Steve had 50% resil so he hit for 30k.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
0
I seen a post a little while ago on arena junkies, it said something along the lines of top teir pve weapons this patch will deal 20% more damage than the pvp ones thats factoring in pvp power and all that, but you give up the resli.

I would look for it and post the link, but i don't care that much heh. I did however read just what i posted and there were lots of numbers also.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
0
Giving up resil isn't going to matter anymore with the 5.3 changes. However, since all items will be scaled down to 496 in BGs, PvP weapons will be the go-to choice.
Edited by Nakkiel on 3/25/2013 7:06 PM PDT
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100 Human Warrior
12875


That is not how Resil/Power works..

PvP power does not "penetrate" resilience, it only modifies the damage your character does to other players. PvE weapons can still be better than PvP weapons.


Ok first off how exactly does it modify it? By reducing the amount of protection resilience gives contested against pvp power. So the pvp power damage is passing through the resilience protection.

A whlie ago WoW had armor pen. Armor granted a certain % damage reduction against physical damage (just like resilience does vs all damage types) and armor pen % allowed more physical damage against the armor rating of the target. Does this sound familiar yet?
It should because it is the exact same mechanic with one only effecting the physical and the other effecting all damage types.

So what exactly is your definition of penetration?

I use the actual definition
pen·e·trate
[pen-i-treyt] Show IPA verb, pen·e·trat·ed, pen·e·trat·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to pierce or pass into or through: <--- This is exactly what pvp power does when it bypasses resilience protection bonus depending on %

I suppose your next post will be trying to nitpicking and say it does not penetrate it, but bypasses it.


You are wrong. It has been explained countless times that pvp power is a damage multiplier, not a resilience bypass/penetration.

Stop spreading incorrect information.
Edited by Drevi on 3/25/2013 8:02 PM PDT
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