Do The Meters Matter?

87 Draenei Shaman
6715
So, from quite a few of the recent 'Shamans are 50% behind other healers' threads, to which Ghostcrawler essentially said 'bosses are dying, you are fine' and an MvP and a few other posters replied with "yeah, HPS/meters are basically meaningless because much more goes into healing than numbers".

Another said that logs are the important part - uptime, efficiency etc.

Okay. I get it. But the numbers are important.
Healing Done is the easiest and most obvious metric we have of healer performance (essentially how much of the raid's damage was healed by you). Blizzard actually changed Absorbs specifically for this reason (they weren't showing up on the meters) which was quite a job - but they thought it was important enough.

Disregarding discussions of who is OP/UP currently - I do think that Blizzard needs to pay closer attention to the healing numbers that are all most players will see. Of course, it's not as important as dps - but some parity is a good thing. 'Utility' is very, very hard to quantify.

So - am I totally off the mark? Does Healing Done/HPS/Effective healing really not matter at all? Is it acceptable for a class to be 50% behind the others due to some nebulous 'utility'?
100 Pandaren Monk
8320
People don't say DPS meters don't matter, even though a boss kill may come down to interrupts, spellsteals, CC, kiting etc, which don't contribute to dps. So yes, healing comes down to other things as well, it shouldn't mean that throughput doesn't matter.
90 Gnome Priest
8430
No it's not, and shaman utility isn't better than anyone elses imho. Stormlash - easier to just have a fist weaver or atonement priest if you're that concerned about dps. Mana Tide - Hymn of hope is better. Windwalk - great but only on one or two fights. Healing Cool downs - great for IF we get to stack, sub par for when we don't. No external cool downs to use on tanks, even druids have one.

Basically resto druids love bringing shamans into raids for swg via symbiosis(who doesn't love a moving tranquility).

Mana Tide will only be relevant until the healers have enough regen to not need it anymore.
87 Draenei Shaman
6715
People don't say DPS meters don't matter, even though a boss kill may come down to interrupts, spellsteals, CC, kiting etc, which don't contribute to dps. So yes, healing comes down to other things as well, it shouldn't mean that throughput doesn't matter.


It's not *quite* as simple as the link between dps = boss dead. But I do think that it plays a pretty important role.

Anyways, I really need to get to sleep. Will check up in the morning. Please keep it constructive and on topic :)
90 Human Paladin
10400
03/26/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Jaike
Mana Tide - Hymn of hope is better.


No, it's really RNG with who gets mana. Mana Tide doesn't descrimnate.

Mana Tide will only be relevant until the healers have enough regen to not need it anymore.


Which is well, forever, if you're a good healer.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14910
03/26/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Jaike
Mana Tide - Hymn of hope is better.


Heh.
90 Gnome Priest
8430
Which is well, forever, if you're a good healer.

what you meant was until everyone is geared up in the raid and they can afford to drop a healer for an extra dps to finish faster. Which healer do you think will be dropped first? The one who has better utility or the one that can power through better?
90 Gnome Priest
8430
03/26/2013 10:18 AMPosted by Nixxin
Mana Tide - Hymn of hope is better.
I should have clarified - 10mans Hymn is much better.
100 Pandaren Monk
8320
03/26/2013 10:13 AMPosted by Teslâ
People don't say DPS meters don't matter, even though a boss kill may come down to interrupts, spellsteals, CC, kiting etc, which don't contribute to dps. So yes, healing comes down to other things as well, it shouldn't mean that throughput doesn't matter.


It's not *quite* as simple as the link between dps = boss dead. But I do think that it plays a pretty important role.

Anyways, I really need to get to sleep. Will check up in the morning. Please keep it constructive and on topic :)


Right. Obviously, it does matter because if hps is too low, people die and there is no one left to kill the boss.
100 Pandaren Monk
8320
Anyway, when Disc Priests were screaming for buffs a few months ago, did GC respond by saying meters don't matter?
90 Draenei Shaman
7640
There are a lot of variables that come into play on the "HPS" issue, progression vs farm, healing partner and composition, 5 healing or 6 healing/2 or 3 healing,external cool downs (offspec tranq/VE) etc.
90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Yes, meters matter. If I could prevent 80% of the incoming damage 2-healing a fight with a shaman the meters would correctly indicate that I was staggeringly overpowered. They wouldn't necessarily prove that shaman is bad, though.
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
I previous wrote this in another shammy thread, but it pretty much sums up how I feel about the issue.

The difference between the idea of hps and dps is so entirely vast that your anology is not functional.

DPS is proportional to how fast the boss goes down, period. Because of the way the mechanics of raid encounters are deisgned, the higher this number is, the more valuable that player is. Period. I know that sounds mean, but raid utility aside, the bigger pew pew wins the race.

HPS itself, has a greater tolerance. For the same reason that progression raiders make their healers do with less (because they NEED less), is the same reason that hps itself is not a viable measure of viability. Instead, on the individual level, we have logs that will show if they're using the correct skills at the correct times.

HPS doesn't determine whether the boss goes down or not, for the most part. While you have to keep up, there is no true minimum number to make this happen. What is more important is the utility of the class through a variety of different encounters. What we see here is not that shaman heals are weak per-se, but that the skil set they have available isn't ideal to the encounters they face in t15.

Not to mention the outside factors that go into HPS like overhealing, absorbs, mastery (and how they interact with other player's healing). It's a tool to help, not to determine the status of a class or player
90 Draenei Shaman
7640
It's a tool to help, not to determine the status of a class or player
+1
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Simply put, the issue is not with the raw thoroughput in numbers. The issue is that t15 won't allow the spec to thrive. They simply can't get the heals out because there isn't a "sweet spot" as far as timing and spacing for them. If you take a shammy into a situation where they aren't running every which way, even with the intereaction of absorbs, a shammy healer becomes much more viable and competitve numerically.

Not that the meters do not matter. They're a way of saying "hey, x amount of dmg went out, y amount of healing went out and what can we do to make sure that tips in our favor" and from the individual standpoint, why is healer #3 doing an abnormally low amount of healing not against the others in the group, but against what is feasibly expected of that spec in this encounter.
Edited by Naérdriel on 3/26/2013 10:35 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
14910
03/26/2013 10:22 AMPosted by Jaike
Mana Tide - Hymn of hope is better.
I should have clarified - 10mans Hymn is much better.


Still negatory.
90 Troll Shaman
17270
meters matter, but you have to add and subtract subjective units to those meters...
-when does the healing happen
-likelyhood of random fatalities thoughtout specific content via different types of healing

-You can say the 50% thing is overstated because absorbs are "sniping", and shaman's would have had Healing Rain fix it.
-You can also that because the absorbs sniped the damage, nobody got gibbed by damage that occured after the "absorbed event" therefore the absorbs have more subjective value and the gap is subjectively larger than 50%.
-You can also say that healing that occurs during very low damage phases (P1 Lei Shen for example) is totally meanless, and cut up parses such that you only take into account when people actually could get killed (minus stupidity).
-On the other hand if you cut out low damage phases that could allow people to regenerate more of their mana, then does that healing output start to matter, if person X did a little more then everyone else would have more mana for the scary phases right? So you can't cut out the low damage phase... ? But if person Y wouldn't have meter padded then Healing Rain would have just done the healing...?

So basically, taking the raw meter numbers isn't enough. But everything you'd do to those numbers is subjective. So some people use raw meter numbers anyways.
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Hymn of hope, imho, is only realiable from the standpoint of the priests individual mana recovery. If I have my mindbender talent picked (depend on the fight) and I am able to channel my Hymn, that's nearly full mana for me. Same goes for an innervate. If I can stack the two, I, personally, am going to get mana back.

But I've stood next to/on top of oom cohealers and it sometimes hits them, sometimes doesn't. That alone makes it not reliable raid-wide.
90 Human Paladin
10400
what you meant was until everyone is geared up in the raid and they can afford to drop a healer for an extra dps to finish faster. Which healer do you think will be dropped first? The one who has better utility or the one that can power through better?


In a general raid situation where you're seriously progressing, you're going to be using 4-6 healers. Using my personal guild setup, we have 1 MW, 3 Discs, 3 Paladins, and 3 Shaman. In a 4 heal situation that still has heavy heals we use 1 MW, 1-2 Discs, and 1-2 Paladins. Anywhere past 5 healing we use a shaman. The returns are just too great.

Sure if we have to 4 heal you'll be dropped, but so is a paladin or a disc which are "overpowered" comparatively.

Simply put, if you have a shaman you can dump more into int/best secondary stat or simply cast more, making yourself overall more effective. So when healing balance comes around it should be noted how much extra healing each other person is doing due to that cooldown.

With the shaman we normally run, we get just under 62k mana per caster per cooldown (((17395*2)/100)*55.68*3.2). Over a 6 minute fight that allows each caster another 124k mana. That's amazing returns that can immediately be turned into output.
03/26/2013 10:39 AMPosted by Naérdriel
Hymn of hope, imho, is only realiable from the standpoint of the priests individual mana recovery.


It's not even reliable for us. I rarely get more than 1-2 ticks of mine, and there have been a few times (depending on group makeup) where I managed to get absolutely NONE of the ticks. It's not guaranteed the priest will be one of the people benefitting.
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