Do The Meters Matter?

03/26/2013 10:22 AMPosted by Jaike
Mana Tide - Hymn of hope is better.
I should have clarified - 10mans Hymn is much better.


How is something that is not even guaranteed to give mana to the caster more useful than a totem that gives mana to -everyone- who needs it? 10 or 25 man does not matter. I'd trade Hymn of Hope and a limb of lesser value for Mana Tide.
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
03/26/2013 10:44 AMPosted by Morenn
Hymn of hope, imho, is only realiable from the standpoint of the priests individual mana recovery.


It's not even reliable for us. I rarely get more than 1-2 ticks of mine, and there have been a few times (depending on group makeup) where I managed to get absolutely NONE of the ticks. It's not guaranteed the priest will be one of the people benefitting.


Ah, I did not know that. And since I only throw it up if I'm in a low dmg phase, with something else stacked on me (like mindbender), I likely couldn't notice.

well poo. *grumble*
90 Blood Elf Priest
14910
If I have my mindbender talent picked (depend on the fight) and I am able to channel my Hymn, that's nearly full mana for me


It's really more like 25% mana assuming you get all the ticks of HoH. The 8 seconds of channel time where you do nothing causes you to gain a decent amount of mana from spirit and makes HoH look better than it is, lol.
Edited by Nixxin on 3/26/2013 10:49 AM PDT

Ah, I did not know that. And since I only throw it up if I'm in a low dmg phase, with something else stacked on me (like mindbender), I likely couldn't notice.

well poo. *grumble*


Yeah. I still use it because.. well, why wouldn't I? If I get something, great! I just don't count on it doing much, if anything, for me. :)
90 Gnome Priest
7845
Ah, I wasn't aware that Hymn that a lot of rng either as I don't have hardly any valid raid experience with toon or atleast enough to know. In that case then, yes, but still I'd hate to only be brought to a raid because of a cool down. It feels more rewarding to know that my heals actually had some value other than as a buffer for the other healers.
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
03/26/2013 10:49 AMPosted by Nixxin
If I have my mindbender talent picked (depend on the fight) and I am able to channel my Hymn, that's nearly full mana for me


It's really more like 25% mana assuming you get all the ticks of HoH. The 8 seconds of channel time where you do nothing causes you to gain a decent amount of mana from spirit and makes HoH look better than it is, lol.


Stttahhhhhhp T_T

The illusion is ruined. I was fooled into thinking it was so awesome. Probably better for me that I know the truth.

boozle.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Do the meters matter?

Yes and no. When a raid is dealing with a particularly difficult fight, there are normally two reasons why the fight is not being downed: 1) People are dying and 2) They're hitting an enrage.

Now, let's examine #1. Why are people dying? Well, if people are dying because of unavoidable raid damage, you're probably not bringing enough healers OR not using CDs correctly. However, this is very rare. Most of the time when people are dying, it's because they have taken some avoidable damage that could not be healed through. Ergo, bringing MORE healers wouldn't help, but cutting a healer for an extra DPS might not hurt - because the fight being shorter means less chances for Dunder McDunderhead to stand in the Cinders.

In the case of #2, hitting the enrage timer, the go-to way of dealing with that is to drop one or more healers and bring in more DPS. In fact, underhealing content you don't have the gear for is standard for most hardcore progression guilds.

This is where meters come in. Generally speaking, when you underheal content, you cut out the lowest healer on the meters - because they are the easiest to compensate for. Now, MTT does make this a questionable affair, as it's difficult to quantify the value of MTT to a raid. But if the healers you are keeping are very well geared, it's likely you can afford to lose MTT even in an underhealing situation because your healers will have the regen to get through it if they are appropriately geared.

But HTT, you say! Well, an Elemental Shaman can bring HTT just as easily as a Resto Shaman. But SLT! Well, 10% isn't all that great, and it's a bit of a pain to stack everyone in a tier where people are always spread out and moving. If you have a CD to cover it that doesn't require stacking (hello there Spirit Shell and Devo Aura), then you probably don't need SLT.

So meters matter to a healer for two reasons - 1) they can tell you if someone's spell choice is off, or if their activity is low, and 2) they can tell you which healer you can afford to drop when you need to underheal content.

If you don't think that's going to be Resto Shaman in nearly every case very soon, you're delusional.
Edited by Tiriel on 3/26/2013 11:16 AM PDT
Actually, yes, when priests of both specs were in the toilet relatively, GC did say that "meters don't matter, priests are still being brought for kills, everything is ok" until a few weeks down the line some (over)buffing happened, for which disc got its stones chopped off in 5.2.

Hymn of Hope is never better than the two mana tides that can be dropped in the same timeframe.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14910
But HTT, you say! Well, an Elemental Shaman can bring HTT just as easily as a Resto Shaman. But SLT! Well, 10% isn't all that great, and it's a bit of a pain to stack everyone in a tier where people are always spread out and moving. If you have a CD to cover it that doesn't require stacking (hello there Spirit Shell and Devo Aura), then you probably don't need SLT.


Ehhh.

Resto HTT benefits from both their healing passive and their mastery. Pretty sure Ancestral Guidance is better in 90% of cases for Ele. SLT is difficult to quantify since the health distribution aspect of it can range from useless to ridiculously good.

Shaman bring a ton of utility. That can be worth more than HPS, even in underheal situations.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/26/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Nixxin
But HTT, you say! Well, an Elemental Shaman can bring HTT just as easily as a Resto Shaman. But SLT! Well, 10% isn't all that great, and it's a bit of a pain to stack everyone in a tier where people are always spread out and moving. If you have a CD to cover it that doesn't require stacking (hello there Spirit Shell and Devo Aura), then you probably don't need SLT.


Ehhh.

Resto HTT benefits from both their healing passive and their mastery. Pretty sure Ancestral Guidance is better in 90% of cases for Ele. SLT is difficult to quantify since the health distribution aspect of it can range from useless to ridiculously good.

Shaman bring a ton of utility. That can be worth more than HPS, even in underheal situations.


Resto HTT isn't enough to keep a Shaman. Sorry, but it's not. Ele HTT may not be as good as Resto HTT, but it's enough to keep a raid alive in conjunction with actual healers (remember a huge advantage of HTT is that you can put it down and keep moving, which can sort of be done with AG, but requires a second CD to manage that). And SLT may be grand, but Smoke Bomb does even more DR.

But that really goes back to what I was saying before - you can drop a healer and cover them with a Hybrid's raid CD. In the case of Shaman, if your healers don't actually need MTT to remain solvent until the end of the fight, and you have other raid CDs available in the raid (which most 25 mans will), then the Shaman will likely be the first to be sat if it's a fight with any kind of spread and movement (which is...most of the fights this tier).
90 Night Elf Druid
6130
I think healing meters help in boosting moral and confidence. I know that sounds weird but If I am consistently low on the meters I feel kinda useless. If I am high on the meters I feel great and enjoy playing more resulting in a more positive attitude and more confidence going into a fight.
90 Goblin Shaman
8435
Healing Done is the easiest and most obvious metric we have of healer performance (essentially how much of the raid's damage was healed by you). Blizzard actually changed Absorbs specifically for this reason (they weren't showing up on the meters) which was quite a job - but they thought it was important enough.


HPS: it mainly is a measure of how much damage the raid is taking compared to the number of heals you can get off plus what they heal for on average.

You have to look at it very objectively and not read it like you would a dps meter.

When looking over healing, I look at some different things: the composition of the healers, the heals being used, cool downs popped, damage being taken by the raid itself, dispels done, overheals (basically healing people when they don't need it- some classes can't help that). I also look at the type of fight we are doing.

Stacked up mechanics (think pretty much all of DS) I expect the shaman to at least be fairly close-ish to the other healers. DS was basically a "band aid raid" for shaman.

Spread out fights- shaman heals are going to drop as the mechanics of the class do not favor spread healing. A lot of ToT does not favor the shaman's toolkit.
90 Night Elf Druid
17270
Healing meters shouldn't be used the same as damage meters are used. Healers should be judged on their spell usage and cooldown management.

So - am I totally off the mark? Does Healing Done/HPS/Effective healing really not matter at all? Is it acceptable for a class to be 50% behind the others due to some nebulous 'utility'?

Yes and no. Every class is unique and handles various damage situations differently. Some healers have weaknesses and that's where the others fill in. You're not solo healing, you're healing as a team.
90 Human Priest
19350
The healing meters for our ten man raid (2 healing with a resto shaman) largely indicate how close the fight was. When we are very close in healing done, it was a very scary fight and very touch and go. When I out heal her by a fair margin, it means that the fight was pretty easy for us and absorbs beat direct heals (especially when the mastery on the direct heals improves them on low health targets). When she out heals me, it means that we were both bored out of our skulls on farm content, and I exclusively cast offensive penance, holy fire, and smite.

On hymn of hope, there are people out there that think the spell is good? You get more mana from not casting than from the mana restoration of the spell. You aren't guaranteed to get a darn thing out of the spell. You need a point in time where you can stand still and channel the whole thing, and hymn doesn't scale with gear. Sure, if I'm really pressed for mana, I will cast it right after a mindbender and hope to get the mana pool buff from it; however, I will often cut the channel if there is anything that I need to do - the expanded mana pool increases the effectiveness of the fiend (larger effect than the "mana return").
90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
03/26/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Gyiatso
Anyway, when Disc Priests were screaming for buffs a few months ago,

they got overbuffed to the point where you could drop a healer simply because you had a disc priest?
yep
90 Night Elf Druid
5475
03/26/2013 06:42 PMPosted by Nzete
When we are very close in healing done, it was a very scary fight and very touch and go.


I think if you turn this sentence around, you will see why GC thinks shaman are OK, or at least, not as weak as they look on meters (meter aggregators show a mix of close and non-close fights).

When the fight is touch and go and people are in danger of dying, then the shaman is very close in healing done.

When you're stomping something that can hardly scratch you, then the shaman gets sniped and their mastery shuts down and they suck on meters.

But who cares about the non-close fights! You're winning the fight anyway! The close fights are the only ones where it even matters which healers you have.

This also implies that dropping the healer who is lowest *when you have lots of healers* is not necessarily such a great idea, if that is a shaman. Because dropping a healer will mean more people are at lower HP more of the time, so their healing output could go WAY up if they stop getting overshadowed by topping off and shields, *in addition* to MTT and other not-direct-healing stuff they bring.

Of course if most people *do* bench the shaman in that kind of situation (and they probably do, views like Juju and Eevee's are rather rare, which is why threads like this exist in the first place), then they'll look *even worse* on meter aggregators because they're being systematically left out of the very fights that they would do better in, and only brought to the fights where they get sniped/shielded/no mastery.

Stacking is only one of shaman's niches, the other is *people who are badly hurt*. Take *that* away from them and... well, don't be surprised when their numbers are weaker. On the other hand, how badly do you really need to heal people who aren't badly hurt?

Rushing to top people off may be a great way to top meters (unless you're a shaman), but I'm not convinced it wins any fights you wouldn't have won anyway. And that's what's really important.
90 Goblin Shaman
8435
Of course if most people *do* bench the shaman in that kind of situation (and they probably do, views like Juju and Eevee's are rather rare, which is why threads like this exist in the first place), then they'll look *even worse* on meter aggregators because they're being systematically left out of the very fights that they would do better in, and only brought to the fights where they get sniped/shielded/no mastery.


I completely refuse to bench the resto shaman I raid with on my priest. If anything I try to find a way to work with his weaknesses. Then again, playing multiple healers has helped in determining what those weaknesses are.

I know if I was newish to healing and didn't know how to objectively read the meter, I'd probably think HPS= everything. That attitude drives me nuts. Even I've been called out on low healing on fights in which there was literally no damage (then I tell them to learn how to read a meter ;)).

Though, personally, I don't think absorbs should completely dominate other healers (my priest is disc).
Edited by Jujubiju on 3/26/2013 8:46 PM PDT
90 Human Priest
16665
no
90 Gnome Priest
7845
This is the failure known as "Triage healing", that absorbs completely negate.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
This is the failure known as "Triage healing", that absorbs completely negate.


Well, no. Triage healing never worked, ever. Absorbs have nothing to do with that failure. It was an unworkable concept as it was implemented in Cata.
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