Do The Meters Matter?

90 Tauren Druid
13005
The issue with askew healing meters is one of mana.

If your 2 healing a fight as lets say resto shaman/holy pally in a 10 man. Lets say its durumu high mobility spread encounter little to now stacking the entire time.

The pally is going to end up carrying the hell out of the shaman in the current raid situation. In fact the best use of the shaman in such a scenario is to keep rt/es on the current tank, rt/hs anyone that's low on hp and spam hw on the tank while the pally raid heals his balls off.

So basically you have one healer using a very mana efficient style of healing and doing a solid 40-50k hp and ending the fight with some mana to spare while the pally is doing 80-90k hps and asking every 30 seconds if mana tide is off CD yet.
100 Pandaren Monk
8320
I guess the meters do matter, shammies getting buffed. Maybe GC should stop saying classes are fine when they aren't?
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I guess the meters do matter, shammies getting buffed. Maybe GC should stop saying classes are fine when they aren't?


Apparently "fine" can have several meanings! Or something...
90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
03/26/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Jaike
Mana Tide - Hymn of hope is better.


I actually Laughed here.

Mana Tide will only be relevant until the healers have enough regen to not need it anymore.


All good healers know that you can never have to much regen.

Also, Healing Meters only show healing done during the entire fight. As I was talking to a Disc Priest the other day, even she says Shamans have really good healing on some parts of fights. Anytime a raid needs to be stacked, and needs heavy AoE healing, Shamans will always shine, but since the raid isnt made up of these phases, we are shown as being far behind.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/27/2013 01:15 AMPosted by Shammyren
All good healers know that you can never have to much regen.


There is a point where you don't actually need extra regen. At the rate we're getting Spirit on our gear, and the item level inflation, that point isn't very far away. As it stands, my guild is able to get through content without a Mana Tide, although we would prefer to have one of course.
90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
03/27/2013 01:23 AMPosted by Tiriel
All good healers know that you can never have to much regen.


There is a point where you don't actually need extra regen. At the rate we're getting Spirit on our gear, and the item level inflation, that point isn't very far away. As it stands, my guild is able to get through content without a Mana Tide, although we would prefer to have one of course.


Yea, I agree theres a point that you dont need the extra regen, but it doesnt hurt if its there really.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/27/2013 01:39 AMPosted by Shammyren


There is a point where you don't actually need extra regen. At the rate we're getting Spirit on our gear, and the item level inflation, that point isn't very far away. As it stands, my guild is able to get through content without a Mana Tide, although we would prefer to have one of course.


Yea, I agree theres a point that you dont need the extra regen, but it doesnt hurt if its there really.


:-\ Unfortunately, I think you're missing my point. No pun intended. >.>
100 Night Elf Druid
6355
Well, no. Triage healing never worked, ever. Absorbs have nothing to do with that failure. It was an unworkable concept as it was implemented in Cata.


Would you care to expand?

As I understand it, the concept of triage is that you have some high HPS, low HPM heals (eg Flash Heal) to use in "oh !@#$" situations, and some low HPS, high HPM heals (eg Heal) to conserve mana when you can afford to heal people slower, and if you don't know which is which, you're going to blow your mana on overheals/fast heal spam, go OOM, and wipe.

What part of that is unworkable?
87 Draenei Shaman
6715
03/27/2013 07:13 AMPosted by Calonderiel
Well, no. Triage healing never worked, ever. Absorbs have nothing to do with that failure. It was an unworkable concept as it was implemented in Cata.


Would you care to expand?

As I understand it, the concept of triage is that you have some high HPS, low HPM heals (eg Flash Heal) to use in "oh !@#$" situations, and some low HPS, high HPM heals (eg Heal) to conserve mana when you can afford to heal people slower, and if you don't know which is which, you're going to blow your mana on overheals/fast heal spam, go OOM, and wipe.

What part of that is unworkable?


This. I think Tiriel is misunderstanding what 'triage' meant.
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
Simple way to look at it is like this.

10man- certain fight requires two healers. Three healers currently on healing team. High damage fight. Your choices.

A) Take the two healers with the highest overall output
B) Take the highest and the lowest output

25 man just change the number of healers.

As much as people say it does not matter, when forced with this type of choice, which most raiding guids are faced with, the choice is pretty obvious.
90 Gnome Monk
7430
Simple way to look at it is like this.

10man- certain fight requires two healers. Three healers currently on healing team. High damage fight. Your choices.

A) Take the two healers with the highest overall output
B) Take the highest and the lowest output

25 man just change the number of healers.

As much as people say it does not matter, when forced with this type of choice, which most raiding guids are faced with, the choice is pretty obvious.


Only if your lead is an idiot. Hps =/= dps where yes, in 90+% of cases you want to just dump the low man. Healing isn't about big numbers overall, it's about not letting anyone die (dead dps=0 dps). Raw output numbers can be very misleading due to smart heal sniping, HoTs being sniped, barrier type cooldowns that don't measure on the meters, etc. In many cases it can just come down to assignments (if your group actually has them). Looking at a recount from an attempt and saying x was third he should go dps without evaluating the context is a recipe for foolhardy decisions...
90 Pandaren Monk
12990
Simple way to look at it is like this.

10man- certain fight requires two healers. Three healers currently on healing team. High damage fight. Your choices.

A) Take the two healers with the highest overall output
B) Take the highest and the lowest output

25 man just change the number of healers.

As much as people say it does not matter, when forced with this type of choice, which most raiding guids are faced with, the choice is pretty obvious.


Only if your lead is an idiot. Hps =/= dps where yes, in 90+% of cases you want to just dump the low man. Healing isn't about big numbers overall, it's about not letting anyone die (dead dps=0 dps). Raw output numbers can be very misleading due to smart heal sniping, HoTs being sniped, barrier type cooldowns that don't measure on the meters, etc. In many cases it can just come down to assignments (if your group actually has them). Looking at a recount from an attempt and saying x was third he should go dps without evaluating the context is a recipe for foolhardy decisions...


That begs the question of why the non-Shaman healer would be any more likely to let someone die, especially with the extra HPS and similar (sometimes better) CDs. I know people will usually just say "need a raid CD here" and or "need a tank CD here" but guess what Shaman also does not bring? ><

The bolded (I'm glad you brought that up) is the other major problem and was completely unaddressed by the buff. Many people who do evaluate the context of this tier for Resto Shaman come to the conclusion that the fight mechanics are extremely unfriendly to the spec, more so that any other healer. This might not be the player's fault, but it still matters when the guild has less trouble getting the fights down with another spec. Even if the healer in question is still going to be brought, they can usually tell when they suddenly go into the next tier and their overall effectiveness drops and they can't properly explain or understand why.

Most of the people on this forum didn't even want straight throughput boosts. They wanted mechanical fixes so that they were more reliable on the various encounters where their effectiveness was noticeably lacking. Boosts to CH range without a Glyph, or HST, or raidwide Stone Bulwark, or a better Riptide Glyph. Anything to make stepping out of their supposed "niche" of stacking become less "dysfunctional" and closer to "not ideal, but still good". The low HPS is a symptom of those mechanical flaws, not the root. So, very little (if anything) is going to change for the tier.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
03/27/2013 07:13 AMPosted by Calonderiel
Well, no. Triage healing never worked, ever. Absorbs have nothing to do with that failure. It was an unworkable concept as it was implemented in Cata.


Would you care to expand?

As I understand it, the concept of triage is that you have some high HPS, low HPM heals (eg Flash Heal) to use in "oh !@#$" situations, and some low HPS, high HPM heals (eg Heal) to conserve mana when you can afford to heal people slower, and if you don't know which is which, you're going to blow your mana on overheals/fast heal spam, go OOM, and wipe.

What part of that is unworkable?


The part where the small, cheap heal was a 2.0 second cast, the fast, high cost heal was balanced such that it was never worth casting, and the big, slow heal ended up being the most efficient thing in your toolkit even though it had the same cast time as the small, cheap heal. The result of this was that people stopped using the small, cheap heal very quickly and ended up leaning on the big, slow heal for the majority of the expansion until they got the mana to do spam the expensive heal occasionally in between (hello Serendipity weaving). For Priests and Shaman, in particular, Triage as it was implemented in Cata just never worked. Heal, as a spell, is inefficient and too slow to be worth casting. Flash Heal cost too much, but Greater Heal was extremely efficient so everyone used GHeal. Meanwhile, PoH got buffed to the point that it was actually more efficient to just cast PoH if 2 people took damage and give everyone else shields. On the Shaman front, Tidal Waves propped up Healing Wave for a bit, but I can tell you as someone who mained a Shaman for most of Cata, I stopped casting Healing Wave while I was doing heroics. It simply didn't heal for enough to be worth my time, even when it was fast. I swapped to Tidal Waves-hasted GHW very quickly.

What's more, the idea of Triage was that you could leave some people low for a while or just heal them up very slowly with cheap, low HPS heals. The problem with this is that it never made it to the actual game. Oh, it existed in the normal 5 mans, but by the time you hit Heroics, damage was intense and you couldn't afford to leave someone low because they would inevitably step in something and get one-shot at half-health. In raids it was worse. Was I sucking on fumes for most of the encounters? Yep. Was I still spamming heals because people were going to die otherwise? Yes. There was no way around it.

They tried the Triage model in the raids during Beta, but it was so boring and slow that they scrapped it and put the heavy damage back in.
100 Human Paladin
18645
I think the 3 heal model that was part of the triage concept worked for some classes more than others. As a paladin I used the crap out of all three but I think that was partly because our small slow heal was extremely mana efficient (mana neutral at a certain gear level) and with haste stacking you could easily get the cast time down well below 2 secs.

Agree with Tiriel though, you simply couldn't let people linger at half health beyond certain content levels. But as a paladin triage sort of did happen because we had extremely crappy aoe heals at the beginning of cata and so if everyone was taking damage you had to single target your way through the group. I can remember quite a few dps in my groups staying at half health for a bit of time (and sometimes whinging about it) before I could get to them.
90 Gnome Priest
8430
03/27/2013 11:53 AMPosted by Linnelle
Hps =/= dps
you sir are uninformed obviously... hps is no where NO WHERE the same as dps. I used uninformed because I'm being nice.
100 Goblin Shaman
8770
03/27/2013 10:32 PMPosted by Jaike
Hps =/= dps
you sir are uninformed obviously... hps is no where NO WHERE the same as dps. I used uninformed because I'm being nice.


Hun, I think he was stating that ;).
87 Draenei Shaman
6715
03/27/2013 10:32 PMPosted by Jaike
Hps =/= dps
you sir are uninformed obviously... hps is no where NO WHERE the same as dps. I used uninformed because I'm being nice.


I think I just facepalmed so hard I may need medical attention.

Do you know what '=/=' means?
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
"=/=" is the same as "!=" if that helps any.
90 Human Priest
5860
I'm more of a ~= person myself.

The answer is yes. Winning meters is very helpful for trolling LFR. Obviously the top healer knows what's up.

The actual numbers that could matter are max potential throughput across the raid encounters for various specs. WoL cannot show this directly, and theorizing can only get so close.

Healing is a zero-sum game (assuming people don't die) and it's not game-breaking to have a particular spec be weaker at 'winning' a larger portion of the zero-sum game. Particularly if that spec is good at keeping people from dying.
90 Gnome Priest
8430
my bad I'm used to using the != sign for not equal.
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