Do The Meters Matter?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
03/29/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Ceddya
He uses Soothing Mists to actively heal. You should probably watch the more recent ones.


To build Chi in preparation of upcoming spikes in damage? He's certainly not using it because he has to resort to triage due to having mana constraints.


well watching a few of the videos, he is casting soothing mist on quite a few people who are at 40-50% health which would suggest that your theory is out of date. Actually he is casting it so often, my guess is its probably a good 8-10% of his healing fight depending

On top of that a lot of healers are going heavily into spirit which allows them to use their bigger spells more often and sometimes completely removing the efficient heals from their casts. Many classes can invest more in throughput and use their efficient spell more often and be just as effective at healing.
Edited by Viena on 3/29/2013 1:00 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
well watching a few of the videos, he is casting soothing mist on quite a few people who are at 40-50% health which would suggest that your theory is out of date. Actually he is casting it so often, my guess is its probably a good 8-10% of his healing


Why wouldn't he? He has to build Chi somehow. Do you really think that he would be casting it if it didn't have the ability to generate Chi?
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
03/29/2013 12:58 PMPosted by Ceddya
well watching a few of the videos, he is casting soothing mist on quite a few people who are at 40-50% health which would suggest that your theory is out of date. Actually he is casting it so often, my guess is its probably a good 8-10% of his healing


Why wouldn't he? He has to build Chi somehow. Do you really think that he would be casting it if it didn't have the ability to generate Chi?


There are less mana efficient ways to get chi at a faster rate and do more healing output as well. If he isn't concerned about mana and solely about topping the raid off as quickly as possible then why isn't he using those when someone is low. Why is he choosing Why would it be bad for me to beacon swap to someone is low and then spam divine light light directly on them? Because while it may get that person topped up faster it is horribly mana inefficient and I would oom myself quickly.
Edited by Viena on 3/29/2013 1:07 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
There are less mana efficient ways to get chi at a faster rate as well. If he isn't concerned about mana and solely about output then why isn't he using those when someone is low. Why would it be bad for me to beacon swap to someone is low and then spam divine light light directly on them? Because while it may get that person topped up faster it is horribly mana inefficient and I would oom myself quickly.


Because Soothing is by far the most efficient way of building Chi? It's a simple form of mana conservation, except that for most other classes, we simply stop casting.
90 Blood Elf Mage
17255
Do people really believe that triage existed outside of 5-man heroics in Cata? Most healers had sufficient mana regeneration to not have to resort to triage after getting geared up in heroics and getting a few loot from T11 normals.


Apparently some people do believe this.

And apparently this belief goes hand-in-hand with (1) a penchant for historical revisionism, where raids weren't dominated by boss damage mechanics that frequently brought people to low health and required frantic spamming before the next round of damage went out; (2) a deeply condescending method of writing posts, including (but not limited to) passive-aggressively implying that everyone who disagrees with you raided with bad players who were too stupid to avoid damage; (3) pulling the progression card in an attempt to imply the person who disagrees with you is a baddie; and (4) flat out being nasty to other people, as if they are not human beings.
Edited by Taymage on 3/29/2013 2:43 PM PDT
35 Blood Elf Priest
8580
03/26/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Jaike
Mana Tide - Hymn of hope is better.


No its not. If you are getting more from hymn of hope than mana tide, your shaman using it has very low spirit. Saying shaman utility isn't good shows how little you raid.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
03/29/2013 01:15 PMPosted by Ceddya
There are less mana efficient ways to get chi at a faster rate as well. If he isn't concerned about mana and solely about output then why isn't he using those when someone is low. Why would it be bad for me to beacon swap to someone is low and then spam divine light light directly on them? Because while it may get that person topped up faster it is horribly mana inefficient and I would oom myself quickly.


Because Soothing is by far the most efficient way of building Chi? It's a simple form of mana conservation, except that for most other classes, we simply stop casting.


Right, but if there is no time to cast more efficient spells and that topping people as quickly as possible was the only thing that mattered, soothing mist would not be the spell to cast when much of the raid is at 50% health and yet you can see him do that a lot.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Right, but if there is no time to cast more efficient spells and that topping people as quickly as possible was the only thing that mattered, soothing mist would not be the spell to cast when much of the raid is at 50% health and yet you can see him do that a lot.


Several of the fights he does it on (these being the ones I have specifically watched), he either can't (due to strat or whatever) be consistently in Melee, or it's outright dangerous to be in Melee (H Horridon comes to mind).
90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
The concept of, "I will use my small, cheap, slow heal to heal people back up because I don't have enough mana to use anything else" has not existed outside of developer's heads since the Cata Beta for the majority of classes.


This concept is not at all new. It was merely in a different form called downranking. You would use a lesser rank of the spell to get a more mana efficient heal. So sure, you only had a couple of heals, but you would use more than one rank of the heal to do exactly what we do now with the Wave/Greater Healing Wave/Healing Surge type model.
Edited by Luvbacon on 3/30/2013 2:01 PM PDT
90 Draenei Paladin
10900
So meters matter to a healer for two reasons - 1) they can tell you if someone's spell choice is off, or if their activity is low, and 2) they can tell you which healer you can afford to drop when you need to underheal content.

If you don't think that's going to be Resto Shaman in nearly every case very soon, you're delusional.


^ This. Very much so.
90 Blood Elf Priest
7845
So meters matter to a healer for two reasons - 1) they can tell you if someone's spell choice is off, or if their activity is low, and 2) they can tell you which healer you can afford to drop when you need to underheal content.

If you don't think that's going to be Resto Shaman in nearly every case very soon, you're delusional.


^ This. Very much so.


But... But... I win the meters, therefore I'm a better person and my life is invalidated! D:

But also... Very much that. It's also a good way to gauge your own healing done and see if you can improve what you've been doing. For example, if my healing is a bit low and I end the fight with over 40% mana, I'm gonna look into spreading PWS a bit more liberally.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12305
I have to say that in some ways the meters do matter.

I tried to pug Jin'Rokh the other day; we brought a 491 holy paladin, a 493 resto shaman and a 494.. druid? I think? It might have been a holy priest.

Anyway, we wiped 3 times on the third lightning storm, and the pug was getting restless, so without telling anyone, I switched from my shadow spec to my disc spec.

Immediately after the first pool I got 3 whispers from the raid: Tank 1 whispered me and said 'holy god we're 4 healing this??!', the strongest dps in the group (once I switched, as I had been top) whispered me and said 'wtf why am I beating your dps by 30k* on this attempt?!?' and immediately followed with 'and wtf how are you healing for 50k hps??!?!?!' and the 491 paladin (probably the best player of the 3 healers) whispered 'LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL'.

*I don't actually remember the dps numbers of that attempt. It was probably a much wider margin of difference, given that all the dps in the group were over 500 ilvl.

We easily beat the boss on this 4th attempt, without anyone going under half the entire time.

So.

Healing meters sometimes matter, although at the same time, this was most likely a gear issue + people unfamiliar with progression raiding (both of the non paladin healers seemed like they had never actually tried raids where they weren't carried based on their comments). If it wasn't a pug, the class utility and ability of the players probably could have been brought to bear and make up for the healing meters; since it was a pug, and we might never see each other again, the healing meters were THE thing that was preventing us from defeating the boss.

@Hymn of Hope:
As a disc priest, I LOVE hymn of hope. Combine with 10k haste, plus a big haste buff (like bloodlust), plus shadow-sha, and you can get 100k+ mana back with it. Especially since, as a disc priest, I run with less than 6k spirit, so I can practically guarantee that I am the lowest mana user in the group at any given time.
That being said I LOVE MANA TIDE. Zomg. Triples my mana regen while it's up. *drool* I would much rather have mana tide, which permits me to continue healing, instead of wasting 6 seconds (or whatever hymn of stand there and do nothing takes).
Edited by Weleroth on 4/18/2013 5:27 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Mage
9835
Meters do matter. Every part of them does, not only the HPS. Gonna post what I had said in another thread.

"Just got kicked from a LFR Lei Shen for doing 36k HPS. That may be low compared to the 60k HPS the top person was doing, but everyone else was doubling my overhealing, even tripling it. I did 6 mill overheals and 3 mill was just from Beacon, to put theirs into perspective. Even a DK tank was claiming he was doing more than me, even though Recount stated he was doing half of mine. Maybe he was looking at overall data and that included the trash and bosses he did before?

I don't drop Divine Lights and Holy Radiance everywhere, so that may be why I don't pull 50k HPS with 13million overhealing."

I know, I know, 36k HPS isn't alot, but compared to the amount of overheals I did, I think I manage my heals better than most in LFR.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
"Managing your heals" only matters insofar as it actually helps the group.

The group has absolutely no reason to care about your low overhealing. It doesn't help them in any way. It doesn't improve their chances of survival - in fact, it might even decrease them, because overhealing is a sort of 'safety net' when people take more damage than anticipated.

If keeping your overhealign down lets you do more effective healing, then that's something to be proud of. But if you jsut avoid overhealing for the sake of avoiding it, even when you have mana to spare, that's not doing anybody any good, and you shouldn't expect any kudos for it.
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
04/18/2013 06:53 PMPosted by Kaels
overhealing is a sort of 'safety net' when people take more damage than anticipated.


I agree. Plenty of ways to utilize your healing which coincidentally is reflected in the overhealing meter.

I always forget the overhealing meter is there until someone finally mentions it. I only really notice it when someone tries to discount the top healer in LFR by spamming overhealing meters.
90 Blood Elf Mage
9835
"Managing your heals" only matters insofar as it actually helps the group.

The group has absolutely no reason to care about your low overhealing. It doesn't help them in any way. It doesn't improve their chances of survival - in fact, it might even decrease them, because overhealing is a sort of 'safety net' when people take more damage than anticipated.

If keeping your overhealign down lets you do more effective healing, then that's something to be proud of. But if you jsut avoid overhealing for the sake of avoiding it, even when you have mana to spare, that's not doing anybody any good, and you shouldn't expect any kudos for it.


But if they're healing because they're anticipating and most of their heals goes over, then they're not managing right. If someone does 20 million healing in a fight and 15 million is overhealing, then there is something wrong. A safety net? That's fine and dandy. But if that net is useless, then there beings a problem.

04/18/2013 07:45 PMPosted by Aurinaux
overhealing is a sort of 'safety net' when people take more damage than anticipated.


I agree. Plenty of ways to utilize your healing which coincidentally is reflected in the overhealing meter.

I always forget the overhealing meter is there until someone finally mentions it. I only really notice it when someone tries to discount the top healer in LFR by spamming overhealing meters.


It's just the same as the top healer spamming the HPS meters. As I said above, the top healer may have done 20 million healing, but if 15 million of that is overhealing, they're doing something wrong. Next time you see someone post either HPS or Overhealing, take a look at the total amount they healed and compare that to the percentage of overhealing. That'll give you more information than simply looking at one side of it.
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
04/18/2013 08:08 PMPosted by Solathelia
It's just the same as the top healer spamming the HPS meters.


I guess I'll remove the word 'spamming' if that was where you found issue.

"I only really notice it when someone tries to discount the top healer in LFR by displaying the overhealing meter".

Next time you see someone post either HPS or Overhealing, take a look at the total amount they healed and compare that to the percentage of overhealing. That'll give you more information than simply looking at one side of it.


I consider the overhealing meter to be nearly useless. =(
90 Blood Elf Priest
12305
the point of the overhealing is to say:

boss does 2 million damage.

I heal you for TWENTY MILLION DAMAGE by using my SUPER MEGA HEAL which happen to be very fast!
YEAAARR!

clearly, my total healing is AWESOME.

on the other hand, the next time, the boss does 2 million damage.

healer b then heals you for a piddly 5 million damage using his very fast but also mana efficient heal.

In both cases, you are healed completely.

But clearly, I am better than healer b? right? right?

No. Even if I can sustain my super mega heals, quite obviously healer b can also sustain his heals; and we both healed fast enough.

Therefore, we are both exactly equal, despite the fact that my total healing (and even HPS) is far higher than healer b.

Of course on the other side, if both myself and healer b are using our very fast mana efficient heals, then obviously since my heal did 4 times as much healing (despite the fact that practically there is no difference), then I am better, since I have better throughput.

But simply looking at healing meters does not explain that. Nor does looking at overhealing always catch the other side.

Healers are simply much harder to gauge, and you cannot say which one is actually 'better' without a detailed analysis of where all the numbers come from, as opposed to just looking at the numbers (whereas with DPS, to some extent, you always know if they are doing damage well, even if that doesn't look at the secondary functions a DPS might have to perform).
90 Tauren Druid
8710
Meters are a part of the equation. I judge healers on their knowledge of their own class, reaction time and thoughput compared to mana management; This one's usually the deal breaker. Too many people push their own numbers to flex their muscles while showing little to no care for mana management.

Overhealing meters are pretty crappy, but have their use. Overhealing meters only matter if that healer is ever going oom.

To sum it all up, meters are just a part of the equation. Judging healers is far more detailed than DPS. Far more needs to be taken into account and there is no single thing to look at and get a real analysis of a healers performance.
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