marks behind all dps specs by a huge margin

90 Dwarf Hunter
16230
the point is both specs(bm/surv) are pve viable.

If you enjoy being 10% behind SV on the mostly single target stuff and 40% behind on anything with multiple targets; as well as behind just about every other class and spec; sure BM and MM are "viable."


This. Beast worked last tier because of the high amount of straight single target shoot outs or burst windows, and even then you still played Survival a fair amount. Given the mechanics this tier and buff to Survival, Beast is largely a dead spec. Marks is still garbage.

Blizzard has admitted they would take steps to boosting all 3 Mage specs in PvE if they were too low. Why won't they do the same for us?
Edited by Bullettime on 3/27/2013 4:03 PM PDT
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1 Troll Priest
0
the point is both specs(bm/surv) are pve viable.

If you enjoy being 10% behind SV on the mostly single target stuff and 40% behind on anything with multiple targets; as well as behind just about every other class and spec; sure BM and MM are "viable."


it does viable dps, once again you're not pushing world first kills where you need the max amount of dps possible.

you being "10%" behind another class doesn't mean your class isn't viable.

i'll say it again, in all of my years raiding in this game, mainly world top 50-80 guilds, i've never once seen a class sat out because they were slightly behind another.

my point is, if the boss dies who cares if you're a few % behind another class.
Edited by Watkykjy on 3/27/2013 4:06 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16230
No, it means that if you actually want to contribute to a raiding group that doesn't consider Jin'rokh progression, you don't play that spec whether you find it enjoyable or not.

Ghostcrawler even recently stated that they would watch Mage DPS and make further adjustments if they felt any of the three were underperforming and they want all three to be competitive. Then why do we tough it out with only 1 spec that's mediocre at best? Where's our others?
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1 Troll Priest
0
No, it means that if you actually want to contribute to a raiding group that doesn't consider Jin'rokh progression, you don't play that spec whether you find it enjoyable or not.

Ghostcrawler even recently stated that they would watch Mage DPS and make further adjustments if they felt any of the three were underperforming and they want all three to be competitive. Then why do we tough it out with only 1 spec that's mediocre at best? Where's our others?


because you're slightly behind other classes, you didn't contribute anything?

just come out and say it, "i don't feel good about myself unless i see my name at the top of skada"
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16230
No. if I'm raiding, I want my group to succeed and am going to do what I can to make encounters smoother. Someone always has to be last, but when we only have 1 effective way to contribute (speccing Survival) or take a personal contribution loss and endure a valley between us and others.....
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1 Troll Priest
0
No. if I'm raiding, I want my group to succeed and am going to do what I can to make encounters smoother. Someone always has to be last, but when we only have 1 effective way to contribute (speccing Survival) or take a personal contribution loss and endure a valley between us and others.....


i could see your point if you were pushing world firsts or early heroic modes while they're relevant, but i seriously doubt your raid leader is going to say "well guys x is doing 5k less dps than y, guess we better sit x and find another y"

as long as you're over the individual dps req on a fight, who cares?
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16230
Why wouldn't you want your raid to go smoother and faster?

With your logic, you're even saying you shouldn't bother showing up with flasks, food, potions, gems, or enchants unless you're a top 10 world guild. And no raider is going to take you seriously with that mindset.
Edited by Bullettime on 3/27/2013 4:20 PM PDT
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90 Troll Hunter
11370
How do you go from quoting me mentioning that BM/MM can be 40% behind SV, to saying that BM/SV is "a few %" behind other classes! I was just comparing our specs to each other!

In reality, SV is a middle-of-the-pack spec and that's fine. But being far behind the middle-of-the-pack does not make you within "a few %" of any given class.

But don't worry guys, no one cares how useful you are as long as the boss dies! And there is never any relation to how useful you are and whether or not the boss dies!
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1 Troll Priest
0
Why wouldn't you want your raid to go smoother and faster?

With your logic, you're even saying you shouldn't bother showing up with flasks, food, potions, gems, or enchants unless you're a top 10 world guild. And no raider is going to take you seriously with that mindset.


how is that the same thing, my point is it doesn't matter in normal modes or late tier heroic modes, being viable doesn't mean you have to be doing the max possible dps.

when you're not raiding at a world #1/top 10 level and people are not playing flawless it doesn't matter if your class sim 5k dps behind another one under perfect conditions.
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90 Troll Hunter
11370
You think MM is going to do 5k DPS less than any other spec on a fight this tier? Haha.
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1 Troll Priest
0
How do you go from quoting me mentioning that BM/MM can be 40% behind SV, to saying that BM/SV is "a few %" behind other classes! I was just comparing our specs to each other!

In reality, SV is a middle-of-the-pack spec and that's fine. But being far behind the middle-of-the-pack does not make you within "a few %" of any given class.

But don't worry guys, no one cares how useful you are as long as the boss dies! And there is never any relation to how useful you are and whether or not the boss dies!


http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/

so what you're saying is, bm doesn't do viable dps.
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1 Troll Priest
0
You think MM is going to do 5k DPS less than any other spec on a fight this tier? Haha.


even if it's more than 5k, you have 2 other specs that do MORE THAN VIABLE DPS.

not every single spec in the game has to be 100% top tier raiding viable.
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
03/27/2013 04:39 PMPosted by Watkykjy
You think MM is going to do 5k DPS less than any other spec on a fight this tier? Haha.


even if it's more than 5k, you have 2 other specs that do MORE THAN VIABLE DPS.

not every single spec in the game has to be 100% top tier raiding viable.


then why does blizzard keep buffing frost mages, despite making the spec even more imba in pvp?
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16230
How do you go from quoting me mentioning that BM/MM can be 40% behind SV, to saying that BM/SV is "a few %" behind other classes! I was just comparing our specs to each other!

In reality, SV is a middle-of-the-pack spec and that's fine. But being far behind the middle-of-the-pack does not make you within "a few %" of any given class.

But don't worry guys, no one cares how useful you are as long as the boss dies! And there is never any relation to how useful you are and whether or not the boss dies!


http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/

so what you're saying is, bm doesn't do viable dps.


If you analyze the individual fights, there's no parses recorded in it for Durumu and up. And fights leading up to that, Beast is only played on Jin'rokh. Every other fight, only Survival is being used because Survival can operate effectively in the new raid while Beast is cut off at the knees and Marks doesn't have enough raw output to warrant usage. Meaning that Beast's DPS ranking is only where it's at because of Jin'rokh and would be much lower with other fights taken into account.
Edited by Bullettime on 3/27/2013 4:46 PM PDT
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90 Troll Hunter
11370


so what you're saying is, bm doesn't do viable dps.


You can play BM on 3 fights this tier. Iron Qon, Twin Consorts, Durumu. Maybe Jinrokh if you feel like it. It's okay so long as there aren't any pet buffs and there aren't multiple targets. Within that niche, BM is acceptable.
Edited by Meleti on 3/27/2013 4:46 PM PDT
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1 Troll Priest
0
03/27/2013 04:42 PMPosted by Sanctifìed


even if it's more than 5k, you have 2 other specs that do MORE THAN VIABLE DPS.

not every single spec in the game has to be 100% top tier raiding viable.


then why does blizzard keep buffing frost mages, despite making the spec even more imba in pvp?


because blizzard thinks every spec needs to be 100% top tier raiding viable.



http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/

so what you're saying is, bm doesn't do viable dps.


If you analyze the individual fights, there's no parses recorded in it for Durumu and up. And fights leading up to that, Beast is only played on Jin'rokh. Every other fight, only Survival is being used because Survival can operate effectively in the new raid while Beast is cut off at the knees and Marks doesn't have enough raw output to warrant usage. Meaning that Beast's DPS ranking is only where it's at because of Jin'rokh and would be much lower with other fights taken into account.


http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/14/60/default/

that's normal mode, you still have viable specs is what i'm saying, it would be really nice for marks to be fully pve viable but it isn't the end of the world that it isn't.
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71 Blood Elf Mage
9040
i could see your point if you were pushing world firsts or early heroic modes while they're relevant, but i seriously doubt your raid leader is going to say "well guys x is doing 5k less dps than y, guess we better sit x and find another y"

as long as you're over the individual dps req on a fight, who cares?


You seem to be missing Bullettime's point.

Ghostcrawler even recently stated that they would watch Mage DPS and make further adjustments if they felt any of the three were underperforming and they want all three to be competitive. Then why do we tough it out with only 1 spec that's mediocre at best? Where's our others?


Basically, why is it ok to adjust mage specs, and not any other class/spec? Mage tears flooded the forums, and GC responded. Hunters bring up legitimate issues, and get totally ignored. Sounds fair, right?
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90 Troll Mage
15740
Basically, why is it ok to adjust mage specs, and not any other class/spec? Mage tears flooded the forums, and GC responded. Hunters bring up legitimate issues, and get totally ignored. Sounds fair, right?


Because all 3 specs were underperforming.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16230
03/27/2013 08:19 PMPosted by Hiroran
Basically, why is it ok to adjust mage specs, and not any other class/spec? Mage tears flooded the forums, and GC responded. Hunters bring up legitimate issues, and get totally ignored. Sounds fair, right?


Because all 3 specs were underperforming.


He also commented that they would make further adjustments if Mages were too low in any of their specs.

We've had none such comments and Marks has been trash all expansion so far.
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