marks behind all dps specs by a huge margin

90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9570
because blizzard thinks every MAGE spec needs to be 100% top tier raiding viable.


Fixed that for you.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17560
03/27/2013 08:19 PMPosted by Hiroran
Basically, why is it ok to adjust mage specs, and not any other class/spec? Mage tears flooded the forums, and GC responded. Hunters bring up legitimate issues, and get totally ignored. Sounds fair, right?


Because all 3 specs were underperforming.


I seem to recall that was the case at the beginning of mists for hunters but all we got was "sorry there is not enough data to show that" With buffs finally coming a patch or two down the line. Leaving the same old status quo for our class in tact (one garbage spec, one semi usable one and one mid/competitive one). Mean while mages start to under-perform and they get an immediate reaction from the head dev and an assurance that all 3 specs will be doing competitive dps.

Can you not see why some classes may cry foul after that?
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1 Troll Priest
0
i could see your point if you were pushing world firsts or early heroic modes while they're relevant, but i seriously doubt your raid leader is going to say "well guys x is doing 5k less dps than y, guess we better sit x and find another y"

as long as you're over the individual dps req on a fight, who cares?


You seem to be missing Bullettime's point.

Ghostcrawler even recently stated that they would watch Mage DPS and make further adjustments if they felt any of the three were underperforming and they want all three to be competitive. Then why do we tough it out with only 1 spec that's mediocre at best? Where's our others?


Basically, why is it ok to adjust mage specs, and not any other class/spec? Mage tears flooded the forums, and GC responded. Hunters bring up legitimate issues, and get totally ignored. Sounds fair, right?


i'll agree the mage attention is really dumb, that class isn't allowed to be bad, they've been by far the best dps caster every tier other than a few, warlocks were better for 1 tier and warlocks are instantly nerfed/mages buffed.

i see the point he's trying to make, but that's just how it is, for some reason blizzard wants all 3 mage specs to be good in pve.

it's even worse in pvp, both frost and fire are very viable and have a very low skill cap now, warlocks are by far one of the worst pvp classes in the game atm and they hot fix nerf dots by 25% and don't at least revert the change in pvp.
Edited by Watkykjy on 3/27/2013 10:15 PM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
17645
Because all 3 specs were underperforming.

Hey blizz, could you nerf SV so that BM can get some mechanic fixes, and MM some # tweaks?

You can then undo the nerfs to SV, but I get how we need to make all of our class garbage before we can fix the currently under-performing 66% of the class.

Edit: You see how silly that line of thinking is?
Edited by Verdash on 3/28/2013 6:38 AM PDT
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71 Blood Elf Mage
9040
it's even worse in pvp, both frost and fire are very viable and have a very low skill cap now, warlocks are by far one of the worst pvp classes in the game atm and they hot fix nerf dots by 25% and don't at least revert the change in pvp.

Instead of fighting so hard against hunter concerns. Start a warlock thread. The more players of different classes/specs argue against each other, the less Blizz pays attention.
Edited by Guapísima on 3/28/2013 1:32 PM PDT
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90 Troll Hunter
11450
The more players of different classes/specs argue against each other, the less Blizz pays attention.

I'm fairly sure that Blizzard only reads Twitter these days.
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90 Orc Hunter
17370
i'd rather be swapping between sv/bm than sv/mm
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100 Troll Mage
17020
03/27/2013 08:37 PMPosted by Prieto
I seem to recall that was the case at the beginning of mists for hunters but all we got was "sorry there is not enough data to show that" With buffs finally coming a patch or two down the line. Leaving the same old status quo for our class in tact (one garbage spec, one semi usable one and one mid/competitive one). Mean while mages start to under-perform and they get an immediate reaction from the head dev and an assurance that all 3 specs will be doing competitive dps.


All 3 specs being garbage is more important that 1 garbage, 1 semi usable and 1 middle. That is why mages got such quick attention. Its not ideal but that logic makes perfect sense and is unbiased.

03/28/2013 06:37 AMPosted by Verdash
Because all 3 specs were underperforming.

Hey blizz, could you nerf SV so that BM can get some mechanic fixes, and MM some # tweaks?

You can then undo the nerfs to SV, but I get how we need to make all of our class garbage before we can fix the currently under-performing 66% of the class.

Edit: You see how silly that line of thinking is?


Yes, and its good that isn't how blizzard has handled this or what I have said at all.

Yes MM should probably be buffed as should BM, but people keep trying to claim a double standard when there really isn't proof of one...

Edit: last sentence should be "when there really isn't proof of one in most, if not all, of these threads that try to claim there is one.
Edited by Hiroran on 3/28/2013 4:32 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
17615
Beginning of mists hunter said hi Blizzard we are low as a class. Blizzard hi hunters wait we need to collect more data. Not hi hunters we will talk again in a week.

A double standard does exist frost has been buffed since the beginning of the expansion to improve it to raiding standards. Fire is being adjusted constantly to keep it from becoming an outlier with top gear of the patch. Well arcane just got broken this patch but has spent a patch at the top.

Hunters recieved out of the gate nerfs to the go to pvp spec due to a bug. Which also gathered up the other two specs. Burst was removed from BM to bring it down in pvp and put in the above middle. SV was low and recieved some small attention to bring it to the middle 5.2. 5.2 does not cater to BM hence why it's low. MM has been junk since the beginning.

So lets be clear mages bottom spec at the beginning is now the middle mage spec. Mages top spec is back to fire same as the first tier. Hunter bottom spec is still bottom and the other SV above the middle. With the previous go to spec hanging with the bottom spec now. This is a terrible place for a pure to be.

Why do huntes not get attention with one decent spec? I swear this conversation played out the same time in Cata.

Oh yeah I hate raiding with a spore bat it just does not feel powerful to me. I raid with what the raid needs. Still it was not okay for shamans it should not be okay with hunters.

How to fix bring back some of the sting interaction with chimera maybe stacking dots to a maximum amount. Chim still needs more damage. MM still just feels frantic it was a spec that took timing. Right now it feels like must mash as hard as possible. Master marks I don't care for how it works but don't have a good suggestion.
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1 Pandaren Rogue
0
Whenever I see new parses from Hunters I just remember that post on the MoP beta forums. Where Kennyloggins (I think) posted his beta parses, admitted hunters were too strong, and asked Blizzard not to over-nerf them.

Blizzard went in with a vendetta on that one
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90 Human Mage
14040
All specs should be viable. It should be demanded from Blizzard long ago. You got keep these guys at Blizzard on their toes. Half of them counting money, the other half wearing crocs sitting on the carpet playing "cards". Team 6 my !@#...

Last time I bothered with BM in Cataclysm the spec wasn't even fit for those suffering from the most debilitating retardations. People played Marks because they could get their hands on it and make something of it. It took some work and effort...it being a unpolished spec. But some guys like that sort of crap, buying a turd and putting some polish on it.

With a .5 second reduction on Aimed Shot I thought people would be making something of Marks again. The spec must be in a bad, bad way.
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1 Troll Priest
0
All specs should be viable. It should be demanded from Blizzard long ago. You got keep these guys at Blizzard on their toes. Half of them counting money, the other half wearing crocs sitting on the carpet playing "cards". Team 6 my !@#...

Last time I bothered with BM in Cataclysm the spec wasn't even fit for those suffering from the most debilitating retardations. People played Marks because they could get their hands on it and make something of it. It took some work and effort...it being a unpolished spec. But some guys like that sort of crap, buying a turd and putting some polish on it.

With a .5 second reduction on Aimed Shot I thought people would be making something of Marks again. The spec must be in a bad, bad way.


this mentality has literally gutted pvp, people under the impression making every single spec fully pve viable and not horribly overpowered in pvp is even possible.

i really can't wait to see how they buff marks, while the class already has 2 viable pve specs and then mm destroys arena for another season.
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100 Troll Mage
17020
03/28/2013 08:33 PMPosted by Darthsirak
Blizzard hi hunters wait we need to collect more data. Not hi hunters we will talk again in a week.


That is what blizzard told us, "hi mages wait until we collect more data"

03/28/2013 08:33 PMPosted by Darthsirak
A double standard does exist frost has been buffed since the beginning of the expansion to improve it to raiding standards. Fire is being adjusted constantly to keep it from becoming an outlier with top gear of the patch. Well arcane just got broken this patch but has spent a patch at the top.


That doesn't actually show anything about a double standard, that shows a company trying to balance their game.

03/28/2013 08:33 PMPosted by Darthsirak
So lets be clear mages bottom spec at the beginning is now the middle mage spec. Mages top spec is back to fire same as the first tier. Hunter bottom spec is still bottom and the other SV above the middle. With the previous go to spec hanging with the bottom spec now. This is a terrible place for a pure to be.


The history of a spec has no effect on the current standing, if that was the case then that would be trying to make an imbalanced game. Before mages were buffed all 3 specs of theres were garbage.

Also Pure's should not be getting preferential treatment for dps or anything. Thats not good for balance.

Why do huntes not get attention with one decent spec? I swear this conversation played out the same time in Cata.

Mages only got attention when all 3 specs were garbage which is more important to fix than a class having 1 decent and 1 sub par and 1 bad.

03/28/2013 08:33 PMPosted by Darthsirak
Oh yeah I hate raiding with a spore bat it just does not feel powerful to me. I raid with what the raid needs. Still it was not okay for shamans it should not be okay with hunters.


I can not say im a fan of this logic either, what if I hated using all the strong skills as a mage because I just didn't like them? Sure you can say you dont like the sporebat but saying its simply not ok for it to be that way is a bit too much imo.
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71 Blood Elf Mage
9040
That is what blizzard told us, "hi mages wait until we collect more data"

After they had already adjusted all three specs. In an attempt to make all 3 raid viable.

That doesn't actually show anything about a double standard, that shows a company trying to balance their game.

But why only for mages? No other class gets the attention the mage class gets.

Mages only got attention when all 3 specs were garbage which is more important to fix than a class having 1 decent and 1 sub par and 1 bad.

But, there wasn't enough data(barely a weeks worth) and Blizz was adjusting mages, and said they'd continue to monitor the "situation". No other class has gotten this type of response from Blizz.

I can not say im a fan of this logic either, what if I hated using all the strong skills as a mage because I just didn't like them? Sure you can say you dont like the sporebat but saying its simply not ok for it to be that way is a bit too much imo.

So it's ok that Blizz stated they didn't want the shaman class to be buffbots, then turn around and do just that to hunters?
Edited by Guapísima on 3/29/2013 7:03 AM PDT
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100 Troll Mage
17020
After they had already adjusted all three specs. In an attempt to make all 3 raid viable.

False, they said that after 3 days before they did any buffs. When mages were 3 of the lowest if not the lowest specs. After they buffed they said they would keep an eye out and thats it.

But why only for mages? No other class gets the attention the mage class gets.


Because what other class had all of their specs being the lowest for their roles?

But, there wasn't enough data(barely a weeks worth) and Blizz was adjusting mages, and said they'd continue to monitor the "situation". No other class has gotten this type of response from Blizz.


Because once again what class had all of its specs at the lowest for their role?

So it's ok that Blizz stated they didn't want the shaman class to be buffbots, then turn around and do just that to hunters?


Hunters aren't simply being brought because of their buffs though. Being able to provide a bunch of different buffs depending on what the group needs is not the same as what a shaman was. Thats utility.

My main point towards the sporebat comment was that Darth said it wasn't ok, I disagree on that but if he doesn't like something thats fine and I might even agree, but saying something isn't acceptable is something I will rarely agree with.
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100 Troll Hunter
17645
03/29/2013 07:15 AMPosted by Hiroran
Because what other class had all of their specs being the lowest for their roles?

Not sure if all 3 were dead last, but in DS, hunters were essentially bottom of barrel, and we got told that they (Blizz) wanted to see more hunters with DW weapons before they changed anything.

And then they turned around and gave us half of the AP buff (but not until after a hunter was benched for a Disc Priest, and I believe after the progression race was over...at the least, only Spine/DW was left) that they gave to all melee at the start of the tier, a buff that was supposedly given to combat poor uptime on bosses for melee (which was a true issue in Firelands...not DS).
Edited by Verdash on 3/29/2013 8:59 AM PDT
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100 Troll Mage
17020
Not sure if all 3 were dead last, but in DS, hunters were essentially bottom of barrel, and we got told that they (Blizz) wanted to see more hunters with DW weapons before they changed anything.


False they were only bottom of the barrel if a caster had a legendary, not many actually did.
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71 Blood Elf Mage
9040
03/29/2013 07:15 AMPosted by Hiroran
Hunters aren't simply being brought because of their buffs though. Being able to provide a bunch of different buffs depending on what the group needs is not the same as what a shaman was. Thats utility.

So, when it's hunters it's utility, when it's another class it's wrong.

03/29/2013 07:15 AMPosted by Hiroran
When mages were 3 of the lowest if not the lowest specs. After they buffed they said they would keep an eye out and thats it.

Blizz has NEVER done this for any other class. And no, that wasn't it. They are continually adjusting mage damage in an attempt to keep all 3 specs close.

03/29/2013 07:15 AMPosted by Hiroran
Because what other class had all of their specs being the lowest for their roles?

Hunters have. Blizz's stock answer, when hunters bring up issues, is pretty much, "Next xpac will fix it.", or "If we buff hunters, the top 1%, in PvP, will be god-mode." Hunters are continually left to struggle w/broken, clunky mechanics, while mages get issues addressed w/i days of new patches/xpac release.

Please take your mage bias, and exit this thread. You're only showing your lack of knowledge of the hunter class.
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100 Troll Hunter
17645
False they were only bottom of the barrel if a caster had a legendary, not many actually did.

So we only beat casters who weren't geared...thats nice.

Guess what, beginning of ToT, mages beat other specs who weren't geared. Oh look, they got buffed.

Hunters didn't have a legendary, nor did they get the melee buff specifically to combat "uptime" issues (which incidentally, made melee able to compete with casters who did have the legendary).

So, it still is a perfectly reasonable, and recent, case of some other class in the shoes recently worn by mages, being left to rot for a significant period of time.
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100 Troll Mage
17020
03/29/2013 09:13 AMPosted by Guapísima
So, when it's hunters it's utility, when it's another class it's wrong.


Thats not what I said.

Blizz has NEVER done this for any other class. And no, that wasn't it. They are continually adjusting mage damage in an attempt to keep all 3 specs close


Since they increased the bombs by 40% what buff have they added? Thats right none, they nerfed the bombs in pvp so they wouldn't be overpowered.

Hunters have. Blizz's stock answer, when hunters bring up issues, is pretty much, "Next xpac will fix it.", or "If we buff hunters, the top 1%, in PvP, will be god-mode." Hunters are continually left to struggle w/broken, clunky mechanics, while mages get issues addressed w/i days of new patches/xpac release.


I have only been paying attention to the way everyone compares until early DS. And since at least that point no one has had all of there specs be the lowest at their role.

Please take your mage bias, and exit this thread. You're only showing your lack of knowledge of the hunter class.


Actually you are just repeating the same garbage that has nothing to back it up that people have been spouting about hunters for a long time.

So we only beat casters who weren't geared...thats nice.


No, thats not true at all. It would take 5 months for 1 person to get the legendary staff in a 10m normal group, the most common type. Not many people worked to actually get the staff in time for DS. Since you already disregarded the hunter AP buff because it went out after the progression race then we can also discount how many people got the legendary staff after the progression race ended and that means hunters were even better on average than casters.

Guess what, beginning of ToT, mages beat other specs who weren't geared. Oh look, they got buffed.


Source? That doesn't match what I remember at all

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25N/all/14/60/default/#1111111111111111111011100000000000

If you look around march 10th, as to avoid the sharp drop all classes had in spec score, and so its before the mage buff

Its goes Sub, arcane, destro, MM, frost, fire. They had 3 out of the bottom 5. Rogue who had lowest also had the highest. Survival was 6th from the top at that time.
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