Concern with Prot gear

90 Human Paladin
17850
I just want to voice my concern with the current Protection Paladin tanking model. Let me start by saying that I'm really enjoying the active mitigation mechanic. A lot of fights in Throne just make our AM shine(horridon, tortos, etc.) with that being said I also loved being CTC capped back in Cata ^_^

My concern is about our gearing strategy. I know Blizzard is aware of it, but it needs to be figured out sooner then later and I just want to know if other people are running into this with their guilds or just agree with me or not. Currently their are a wide range....VERY wide range of gearing strategies for prot paladins. If you disagree then go read the prot pally forum on elitestjerks.com Universally I believe most will agree that you want to be hit/exp capped or close to it and then mastery or haste with most parry or dodge just being a secondary *meh* stat. The only stat on gear we flat out don't want is crit.

The issue this brings is that we're stealing a lot of gear from DPS or have to argue with DPS why say haste/mastery legs are a tanking upgrade. Or better yet a hit trinket with strength proc because strength gives us soooo much parry now. It's just sad that items with parry/dodge on them aren't very appealing over other equal iL gear with what is normally considered DPS stats on them. In a small 10man group I feel really bad rolling against my plate dps counter parts when there's other "tank only" stat gear out there that he can't use, but isn't nearly as beneficial to me then DPS stat gear.

I know parry and dodge aren't bad and that it is viable to stack them instead of say haste, but experienced paladin tanks know that the dmg taken difference between a well played haste mastery tank is a lot different then a dodge parry tank since we can't get anywhere near full CTC....yet.

I'll step off my soap box now. As I said above, I really enjoy the current play style and understand why I want the stats I want. I just don't like that I'm fighting dps players for tank gear. Something should be changed. Is this just me or do any others agree? Thoughts? Any other concerns? ....Gearing was so much simpler when it was just mastery/dodge/parry.
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90 Draenei Paladin
17040
Something should be changed, but so many people cried foul when Blizzard was going to mess with Haste Tanking that nothing was really done.

Allowing dodges and parries to proc AS did nothing to increase those stats attractiveness, not to the point where people would actually go after them.

Don't know how your guild handles it but in my guild the DPS still get first pick of the actual DPS plate/trinkets because even if it's inferior the Tanks still have other pieces to use.

It's a case by case thing but that's the general rule, as it should be IMO.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 3/28/2013 4:48 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
17850
Yea I agree with the DPS over Tanks in that case. Our raid comp is in pain mostly cause we have two pally tanks right now, but that's a unique case. I really want to voice the issue so that Blizzard is aware that the changes they made didn't impact as much as they wanted it to.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
we can't get anywhere near full CTC....yet

The word you're looking for is "ever", not "yet". Unless you can get to 100% block or 100% avoidance against a boss-level enemy, the concept of CTC is gone.

I don't think avoidance on gear is going to survive this expansion, so you and your DPS should get used to tanks and DPS rolling on the same gear. But, for now, it's totally viable to stack mastery, which tanking gear has, so you can let your DPS take the haste items first.
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90 Human Paladin
12265
03/28/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Keten
we can't get anywhere near full CTC....yet

The word you're looking for is "ever", not "yet". Unless you can get to 100% block or 100% avoidance against a boss-level enemy, the concept of CTC is gone.

I don't think avoidance on gear is going to survive this expansion, so you and your DPS should get used to tanks and DPS rolling on the same gear. But, for now, it's totally viable to stack mastery, which tanking gear has, so you can let your DPS take the haste items first.


My actual hope for the future of all tanks is to have parry, dodge, and (for those who can) block come from other stats. Strength to parry was a good idea. Dodge is next to useless for every class except monks and druids, so maybe crit should improve dodge. Block from mastery and passives is fine for paladins and warriors. I just don't see the point of having to stack parry and dodge when the active mitigation model points to only blood death knights and protection warriors really stacking the stuff, and blood death knights usually want more mastery anyway.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
10995
I personally only take dps gear when none of our dps need it. you do not NEED extra haste to have SoTR cover any of the dangerous parts of fights (ie, ji-kun's talon rake). All that extra haste is doing is allowing you to cover more boss auto attacks. The armor/stam from traditional tank pieces are still the two most important stats for your survival. That and you can forge the dodge/parry into more preferential stats.

Dps gear will benefit the raid more when it's on a dps, than it will on a tank, and as long as that holds true, you should take dps gear only when no one else can benifit from it better than you, since you know, you do have the option of taking that dodge/parry gear, it's just not optimal.

but experienced paladin tanks know that the dmg taken difference between a well played haste mastery tank is a lot different then a dodge parry tank since we can't get anywhere near full CTC....yet.


It's different in that the haste/control build that most paladins run makes you take the most damage out of all the builds. The traditional mastery/avoidance build still nets you the least damage taken overall. CTC cap also doesn't exist except under extreamly high amounts of mastery and our current 2pc bonus. Haven't actually tried, but if you got lucky and got the mastery increasing mutagen on primordius, you could probably hit 100% block on that fight.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
My actual hope for the future of all tanks is to have parry, dodge, and (for those who can) block come from other stats. Strength to parry was a good idea. Dodge is next to useless for every class except monks and druids, so maybe crit should improve dodge. Block from mastery and passives is fine for paladins and warriors. I just don't see the point of having to stack parry and dodge when the active mitigation model points to only blood death knights and protection warriors really stacking the stuff, and blood death knights usually want more mastery anyway.

I like the way monks do it: they get 20% parry from Shuffle, which is applied by using Blackout Kick, and 30% dodge from Elusive Brew, which stacks from auto-attack crits. They could apply that sort of system to all of the tanks and remove avoidance from gear.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
10995

I like the way monks do it: they get 20% parry from Shuffle, which is applied by using Blackout Kick, and 30% dodge from Elusive Brew, which stacks from auto-attack crits. They could apply that sort of system to all of the tanks and remove avoidance from gear. [/quote]

Except then every tank will end up having the same issue that monk and druid tanks have, you WILL have the occasional bad streak of luck and will get !@#$ on by the boss because you just didn't dodge/parry anything.
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90 Human Paladin
10940
tldr prots broke everyone knows
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
Except then every tank will end up having the same issue that monk and druid tanks have, you WILL have the occasional bad streak of luck and will get !@#$ on by the boss because you just didn't dodge/parry anything.

Well yeah, it doesn't have to be an exact copy of the mechanics, but, like, instead of having Grand Crusader proc off of CS/HotR hits make it a 100% chance proc when those abilities crit, make ShoR grant 20% parry and 10% dodge (or something like that) for 10-15 seconds, and then all strength plate gear would be good for paladin tanks.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
10995

Well yeah, it doesn't have to be an exact copy of the mechanics, but, like, instead of having Grand Crusader proc off of CS/HotR hits make it a 100% chance proc when those abilities crit, make ShoR grant 20% parry and 10% dodge (or something like that) for 10-15 seconds, and then all strength plate gear would be good for paladin tanks.


Those changes wouldn't make you favor crit or dodge/parry any more than we currently do. I understand it's just examples, but as long as prot paladins have SoB, we will continue to favor haste and mastery heavily.

with the removal of CtC in MoP, they removed any real desire to seak avoidance stats. You can no longer guarantee that you can reduce damage consistently because of avoidance, therefore the stats are "bad".

IMO, they should just remove dodge/parry from gear, and continue to have strength convert into parry and agi convert into dodge. remove dodge for paladins, warriors and dks since there's really no reason to have dodge and parry outside of all the trinket procs that seem to be dodge.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
Those changes wouldn't make you favor crit or dodge/parry any more than we currently do. I understand it's just examples, but as long as prot paladins have SoB, we will continue to favor haste and mastery heavily.

It's not supposed to. It's just supposed to make crit useful, so they can remove dodge/parry and let us use DPS gear.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7570
They need to remove the high expertise requirement for tanks and take a look at mastery compared to dodge/parry.
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90 Human Paladin
13000
Interesting. I came here to make a similar post. Iʻve been bear tanking since BC, but I decided to give my paladin a try again this expansion. Itʻs funny that i was looking forward to being able to use ALL the tank drops instead of passing on all the parry and block stuff like I did for 4 expansions. Now Iʻm passing on gear specifically meant for my class and spec to roll on someone elseʻs gear. I hope plate dps know how prot is gearing nowadays, because I feel like a jerk needing on their drops.

One of the nicest benefits of playing a tank is having the tank drops all to yourself, but I donʻt even want them.
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