Just *How* Bad Is Elemental Shaman?

90 Worgen Warlock
14465
03/31/2013 08:46 AMPosted by Slant
Unfortunately most heroic guilds don't have logs public at this time but you can see damage meters in kill videos etc.

Sample size is too small. You may be right, or you may not. That doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

Heroics often emphasize different niches than normals, but I doubt elemental's cleave is enough to catapult elemental from, again, not just "low" but dead last all the way up to the middle of the pack. But I can't prove that, it's just my guess. The data just isn't available yet.


It's like you're unaware that elemental received a straight damage buff on 5.2 release pushing them farther up the competitive ladder. That may not have been enough by itself, but with the removal of the CL damage reduction jump, and the fact that elemental is a great AoE/cleave caster (even before that removal), and all the fights in ToT basically have that component it's not hard to realize that elemental is in a pretty good spot for this tier. Maybe not the king of the tier, but anyone who says elemental can't compete is wrong.

They were used last tier even though they weren't very strong, and then they got straight buffed and almost all the fights favor them in this tier so to think that they can't be used effectively now is an absolutely retarded thought process.
Edited by Varlth on 3/31/2013 9:15 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
13905
I wouldn't expect single-target DPS buffs. It's pretty clear our niche is AOE and cleave, which is fine for this tier since most of the fights are just that.
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
Elemental Focus now increases the Shaman's spell damage by 15% (was 10%).
Shamanism now increases the damage of Lightning Bolt by 70% (was 50%).

Already happened bro.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13905
Elemental Focus now increases the Shaman's spell damage by 15% (was 10%).
Shamanism now increases the damage of Lightning Bolt by 70% (was 50%).

Already happened bro.


Key phrase: "Already happened."

EDIT: Bro ;)
Edited by Odomus on 3/31/2013 9:33 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
Your single target DPS is already fine as it is. It doesn't have to be top dog, but it's not bottom of the barrel so I'm not sure what your point is.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13905
Your single target DPS is already fine as it is. It doesn't have to be top dog, but it's not bottom of the barrel so I'm not sure what your point is.


My point? Uh, I said don't expect single target buffs, and you said they already happened. Clearly I don't expect things to happen or not happen that have already happened. So I'm not entirely sure you should question my point.

And "fine" is subjective. It may be fine if our AOE and cleave are superior. I'm not entirely sure that's the case. Right now, it's middle of the pack. Middle of the pack AOE/cleave and cellar-dweller single target means overall, we're not that great.
Edited by Odomus on 3/31/2013 9:58 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
5310
I suggest reading the rest of the thread, where I showed that elemental was not just low, but dead last in T15 (meaning 5.2) 10N and 25N.

If you want to make the argument that elemental performs better in 10H and 25H, go for it-- but you need to support that with data, and I also proved that there aren't enough samples in WoL to do it yet.
Edited by Slant on 3/31/2013 10:03 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
I suggest reading the rest of the thread, where I showed that elemental was not just low, but dead last in T15 (meaning 5.2) 10N and 25N.


No, you didn't. You linked spec score. Look at the actual DPS numbers and you see a much different story and it's not dead last.

Looking at the actual boss fights and you can see that elemental is only dead last on several boss fights on either raid size, and range from middle of the pack to bottom middle on the others.

In other words your links showed nothing, and that's why I didn't care about them.
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I suggest reading the rest of the thread, where I showed that elemental was not just low, but dead last in T15 (meaning 5.2) 10N and 25N.

If you want to make the argument that elemental performs better in 10H and 25H, go for it-- but you need to support that with data, and I also proved that there aren't enough samples in WoL to do it yet.


Thank you Slant for continuing to ignore anyone arguments, data and common sense in favor of parroting the same, already incorrect hypothesis.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5310
03/31/2013 10:17 AMPosted by Varlth
No, you didn't. You linked spec score. Look at the actual DPS numbers and you see a much different story and it's not dead last.

Spec score is better, because it minimizes the effects of "gimmick" fights. Please read the "what is spec score" link at the top of every raidbots page. More info at this link also:

http://seriallos.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/413-spec-score-how-does-it-work/

Your objection is not meaningful, anyway. Using overall DPS elemental isn't dead-last. It's next to last, after BM. Big difference, right?
Edited by Slant on 3/31/2013 10:25 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
As usual, this score is not the end-all, be-all measure of anything. It's merely an interesting collection of data trying to compress a whole lot of data into a single comparable value.


Using overall DPS elemental isn't dead-last. It's next to last, after BM. Big difference, right?


Have you actually tried flipping through boss-by-boss fights?
Edited by Varlth on 3/31/2013 10:31 AM PDT
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90 Human Priest
3650
I am sorry, but I keep on reading "dead last." I believe that 90% of the people playing Shaman do not care about being "dead last."
Edited by Pharii on 3/31/2013 10:31 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
13905
Look at the actual DPS numbers and you see a much different story and it's not dead last.


It does? I see elemental second from the bottom overall rather than last comparing spec score and overall DPS.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
Elemental Shaman is fine. If you're low on the meters, you're not using CL enough. If you're top of the meters, your group isn't that good, or your assignments allow you to maximized your toolkit. Just like every other specc, you have strengths and weaknesses. Many of the encounters in T15 play into your strengths, especially heroic modes.
Edited by Cyous on 3/31/2013 10:39 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
5310
Many of the encounters in T15 play into your strengths, especially heroic modes.

I have proved that normal modes do not.

Heroics, maybe? There's not enough data to support or disprove your hypothesis.

I am sorry, but I keep on reading "dead last." I believe that 90% of the people playing Shaman do not care about being "dead last."

So you wouldn't care if shadow was the lowest ranked DPS spec in the game? Fair enough. But saying that "90%" don't is crazytalk.
Edited by Slant on 3/31/2013 10:44 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
13905


Have you actually tried flipping through boss-by-boss fights?


Yes, it shows middle of the pack DPS on add-heavy fights and second to last on single-target bosses, just like I've been saying. Overall, though, we are second to last, not exactly a "much different story."
Edited by Odomus on 3/31/2013 10:45 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
It does? I see elemental second from the bottom overall rather than last comparing spec score and overall DPS.


Then maybe you should stop being stupid by looking at overall meters and look at a boss-by-boss comparison. I mean, who the hell cares about that? That's like flexing trash dps numbers and boasting about it. No one gives a damn about them.

They are no where near glamorous kings, but they are not dead last. Part of this is due to gear as well. The T14 bonuses are pretty damn meh for elemental. The T15 bonuses, however, are pretty damn sexy.

03/31/2013 10:43 AMPosted by Slant
I have proved that normal modes do not.


You've done jack !@#$.

I don't know how else to explain to you other than spec score is pretty damn meaningless. Congratz. The score shows an overall comparison of sorts to remove the gimmick factor of fights. Guess what? The fights have gimmicks. And when you're progressing on content and you see that shamans do pretty well on an encounter (Like Lei Shen for example) you aren't going to bench your elemental because his spec score is low.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5310
03/31/2013 10:49 AMPosted by Varlth
You've done jack !@#$.

Maybe try stepping back a moment, taking a breath, and acting like an adult? Just a thought.
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
I would argue that acting like an adult would be not throwing around one single score and calling it the end all be all score, and that you therefore have proven something because of it.
Edited by Varlth on 3/31/2013 10:56 AM PDT
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I would argue that acting like an adult would be not throwing around one single score and calling it the end all be all score, and that you therefore have proven something because of it.


Its not use bro, this guy isn't about having a discussion, he's about beating his drum. He doesn't realize you can like your class and enjoy the game, he just wants to be a martyr.
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