Just *How* Bad Is Elemental Shaman?

90 Troll Druid
14580
I have proved that normal modes do not.

Heroics, maybe? There's not enough data to support or disprove your hypothesis.

It's not about numbers. It's about practicality of your toolkit and the strategy used. Besides, if I prove one encounter playing into your strengths, your notion of "normal modes do not [play into your strengths]" to be a falsity: Horridon. Council of Elders. Tortos. Ji'kun.

Now if we add Heroics...
Horridon, Council, Tortos, Megaera, Ji'kun, Durumu.

And that is going purely off Chain Lighting and not the other utility Shaman bring (Bloodlust doesn't count).

Elemental is fine. Play better and you'll see favorable results.
Edited by Cyous on 3/31/2013 11:21 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
5100
03/31/2013 11:17 AMPosted by Cyous
It's not about numbers.

Numbers matter. They aren't all that matters. But being dead last is not something you can sweep under the rug and say "forget about it, c'mon, no biggie".

Although, god knows, people sure are tryin'.
Edited by Slant on 3/31/2013 11:26 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
As someone who did semi-serious to serious heroic raiding from the end of WoTLK to the end of T14 I can tell you that as long as your numbers are over that acceptable mark required for the fight they aren't a big deal until/unless you're somehow at the point in the fight where the raid's mechanics are flawless, and the numbers aren't there (and in which case if you're personally over that required mark you're basically fine, and others aren't). Mechanics are far more crucial for heroic raiding than being able to pump out more DPS, and that's something people really don't seem to get. Those top players are capable of not only throwing hundreds of hours into progression, but then handling those mechanics very well, and still pump out anywhere from good to amazing numbers.

Granted, if you're pulling 80k, and should be able to be pulling 100k+ then that needs to be looked at, but other than T11 (I mean really, that tier was gross for elemental) elemental hasn't had a problem carrying its weight in content for a very long time.
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90 Worgen Warrior
11370
Elemental is dead last in 10N and 25N. Not "close to the bottom", like WW or Ret. Dead last.

There are insufficient samples to look at heroic modes at this time. It's plausible that elemental could do better there, certainly. But rising from dead last to (at least) middle of the pack seems unlikely.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10N/all/7/30/default/
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25N/all/7/30/default/

I'm sure that the elemental shaman in your raid is always near the top of the meters. That doesn't mean that the spec is OK overall. That's a sample size of 1.


This is where your over-reliance on raidbots fails you.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5100
This is where your over-reliance on raidbots fails you.

Can you support that statement, please?
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100 Tauren Shaman
13610
Then maybe you should stop being stupid by looking at overall meters and look at a boss-by-boss comparison.


If you read my posts, you'd know I said what you said about the different fights.

They are no where near glamorous kings, but they are not dead last. Part of this is due to gear as well. The T14 bonuses are pretty damn meh for elemental. The T15 bonuses, however, are pretty damn sexy.


Agreed. I'm really looking forward to getting my tier bonuses. I think we have some of the best this tier. Once more elemental shaman get the four-piece, I think our single-target DPS will rise a few notches. I will, however, say I think elemental will end up relying too much on the bonuses.
Edited by Odomus on 3/31/2013 12:01 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
13610
03/31/2013 11:26 AMPosted by Slant
It's not about numbers.

Numbers matter. They aren't all that matters. But being dead last is not something you can sweep under the rug and say "forget about it, c'mon, no biggie".

Although, god knows, people sure are tryin'.


Well, somebody has to be last. If every spec that was last received buffs, then it would be a never-ending cycling of buffing the last spec.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5100
Certainly, and while it makes for good copy saying dead last all the time, what really matters is the gap between middle and bottom. If "dead last" was only 2% lower than the middle, nobody would care.

Looking at overall DPS (because spec scores can't be directly compared in this way) elemental sits at 102k DPS, the top is 125k DPS, and the middle of the pack is around 111k DPS. So elemental does 18% less damage than the top and 8% less than the middle.

The comparison to the top doesn't really matter. They should probably be nudged a bit in the opposite direction. The comparison to the middle, on the other hand, really really does.
Edited by Slant on 3/31/2013 12:17 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
14580
But being dead last is not something you can sweep under the rug and say "forget about it, c'mon, no biggie".

Why do top tier progression guilds bring hunters to the raid then? And Elemental Shamans. If not for their single-target DPS...why are the best players in the world being to stupid to carry such pitiful classes?
Edited by Cyous on 3/31/2013 1:13 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
5100
Elemental is being taken for stormlash, according to another poster here that is in a top guild. He also thinks their performance is better in heroics, but there's no data to prove that yet either way.

Survival's performance is middle of the pack, so why wouldn't a guild take them? Marks and BM are very low, of course.
Edited by Slant on 3/31/2013 12:50 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
14580
Survival's performance is middle of the pack, so why wouldn't a guild take them?

Expanding on that: Only a few days after the 5.2 patch went live, Mages kick and scream for buffs in PVE. They were middle of the pack. One would argue "middle of the pack" is fine, so why would no one take them? When do Hunters get their "middle of the pack not good enough" buff?

He also thinks their performance is better in heroics, but there's no data to prove that yet either way.

You don't need Raw Numbers to look at encounter mechanics. Watch a heroic encounter of an Elemental Shaman POV. Chain Lightning is stupidly strong this tier. You literally press 1 button mindlessly and push 250k DPS for Tortos. You push Chain Lightning mindlessly on Heroic Megaera and obliterate the Arcane adds. You target a middle section of the Ice Wall on Heroic Durumu and dip into the wall 5 times with a single Chain Lightning. I need to DOT up EVERY SINGLE MOB ONE AT A TIME. You press 1 button and instantly reap the reward. Classes are designed differently. Each has there strengths and weaknesses.

Elemental is fine. If you think Elemental is bad, then you simply need to play better.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5100
Elemental is fine. If you think Elemental is bad, then you simply need to play better.

You have no proof, you're just talking about your personal experience. And when you're insulting, as so many have been in this thread, you expose your agenda.
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03/31/2013 01:32 PMPosted by Slant
Elemental is fine. If you think Elemental is bad, then you simply need to play better.

You have no proof, you're just talking about your personal experience. And when you're insulting, as so many have been in this thread, you expose your agenda.


http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/100/14/60/default/
25 H 178K

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/100/14/60/default/
25 Normal 141 K
(And above 5 specs not absolute bottom as you keep saying)

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25L/100/14/60/default/
LFR 178K Closer to the top than the bottom.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/14/60/default/
10H 167K very much in the middle above 10 specs

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/100/14/60/default/
10 Normal 130K above 10 specs.

Can you stop now? Nothing supports your Ele is the worst hypothesis.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5100
Top100 links are a tiny sample size. Use all parses, please.

If you only want to look at elite players, use all parses at the 85th percentile.

Edit: Ahh crap, I replied to Alordis. Sorry, won't happen again.
Edited by Slant on 3/31/2013 1:59 PM PDT
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Again, I got it. Information that supports your argument is better than any other possible information. Yep, confirmation bias much?
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90 Troll Druid
14580
You have no proof, you're just talking about your personal experience

I happen to play with top tier players who know exactly how to maximize their output. My experience with Elemental comes from discussions of theorycrafting and strategy formulation. What's your experience from, SimCraft? Noxxic?
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100 Draenei Shaman
5100
What's your experience from, SimCraft? Noxxic?

Have you considered reading the thread?
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100 Tauren Shaman
13610
Nothing supports your Ele is the worst hypothesis.


Spec score does. How accurate that is isn't known to me. You might argue that it is not accurate, but then again, neither is using top 100 parses.
Edited by Odomus on 3/31/2013 2:37 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
5100
It's completely accurate, because it's using every parse from WoL. When used properly (all parses spec score with sufficient datapoints) raidbots.com accurately describes how players are actually performing. When used improperly, you can make it say whatever you want.

Of course selection bias is in effect; ie "everybody knows enhance is better" so most of the good players spec enhance. You need to take that into account when interpreting the results.

If you want to know more about how spec score works, check the link I posted earlier in the thread. The raidbots author goes into detail. But even if you don't like spec score, the overall DPS charts have elemental second to last (BM), so the conclusion doesn't change-- elemental is very weak in normal modes.
Edited by Slant on 3/31/2013 2:50 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
9475
03/31/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Alordis

You have no proof, you're just talking about your personal experience. And when you're insulting, as so many have been in this thread, you expose your agenda.


http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/100/14/60/default/
25 H 178K

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/100/14/60/default/
25 Normal 141 K
(And above 5 specs not absolute bottom as you keep saying)

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25L/100/14/60/default/
LFR 178K Closer to the top than the bottom.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/14/60/default/
10H 167K very much in the middle above 10 specs

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/100/14/60/default/
10 Normal 130K above 10 specs.

Can you stop now? Nothing supports your Ele is the worst hypothesis.


....

You can't use top 100 phrases for Elemental for the same reason you can't use top 100 phrases for Fire Mages and turn around and say 'lol balanced'. There is simply too much either favorable or unfavorable RNG within the spec to only take the top 100 which would have been more RNG luck based + good player based and call that the average median.

Fire Mages have the same problem, that's why we don't even bother calling balance on where Fire sits at with top 100, it's not even remotely close to where you'd expect one to sit at.
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