Just *How* Bad Is Elemental Shaman?

100 Tauren Shaman
13905
You realise this is provable just as much as anything on WoL, right?

Ele shamans are a stackable class on heroic Durumu, for example. Go to wowprogress and look at the first guilds to kill that boss. I've already provided some examples - Blood Legion, world first on that boss, used two, one of which was an alt and still finished top 5 on the meter, and Method, world second, used three, and again one was an alt. Next, go to youtube, search for the name of the guild and Durumu. Find their kill video, and watch it. How many ele shamans do they have? Is it at least 2? Try another guild and repeat. Or you could just take my word for it. But if you don't want to take my word for it that's totally fine, you can check for yourself. Raidbots is not the only valid resource in the world, and it's not "hearsay" to find information somewhere other than a collection of WoL data.

I don't know when you'll run into the first guild that doesn't have ele shamans, but I can assure it won't be anywhere near the top.


This = Logic


Are they stacking elemental for other heroic fights? The only one I've heard of is Heroic Durumu.
Edited by Odomus on 4/4/2013 1:53 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7565
It seems a bit silly to ignore the obvious benefits of chain lightning/lava beam on ice walls because there "isn't enough data." Come on, use some simple common sense and look at that fight and then the stregths of ele. It's not exactly rocket science to see why they are so great for it.

That said, ele is as it always is: towards the bottom quite frequently.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Warlock
7990
I am not suggesting that Ele doesnt need to be looked at. I have a 90 ele/resto and would like to enjoy playing both those specs. But numbers are not the only thing that each class can bring. So open your mind and see what others are trying to show as well.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
10510
I don't understand how saying "Elemental is great for this one mechanic on Durumu" leads to "Elemental is 100% fine". That's the logical jump I'm struggling with, in the absence of objective raidbots data.

Btw, Exodus did not use an elemental on Durumu. World 7th guild and world 3rd kill is apparently the new reference line for "won't be anywhere near the top".
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7565
I don't understand how saying "Elemental is great for this one mechanic on Durumu" leads to "Elemental is 100% fine". That's the logical jump I'm struggling with, in the absence of objective raidbots data.

Btw, Exodus did not use an elemental on Durumu. World 7th guild and world 3rd kill is apparently the new reference line for "won't be anywhere near the top".


That said, ele is as it always is: towards the bottom quite frequently.


There are three types of posters on this thread.

1. Ele is great for durumu, ergo ele is great. <dumb
2. Ele may look great for Durumu, and mechanics may let it shine, BUT I NEED LOGS TO CONFIRM what videos are clearly already showing. <dumb
3. Ele is great for Durumu, but that doesn't mean ele is fine. <logical
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5230
That is correct, I do need logs to prove it. Obviously the spec is at least competitive at that one fight, and Gondlem says others too. But how good is it? How does it compare to other specs? Those questions are not answered. You need a large data corpus to get there.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7565
That is correct, I do need logs to prove it. Obviously the spec is at least competitive at that one fight, and Gondlem says others too. But how good is it? How does it compare to other specs? Those questions are not answered. You need a large data corpus to get there.


But see, the onus is on you then. Plenty of guilds have obviously been using them and plenty of videos have been showing them doing well. As you are the one pushing for changes, it's your burden to bare.

By the way: data corpus? Tossing around $50 words when "we need more data" will do doesn't really gain you all that much cred. Not sure why that bothered me to read, but it seems a little try hard.
Edited by Dictainabox on 4/4/2013 2:26 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5230
I work as a DBA, so I use words like that all day. Sorry if it sounded pretentious.

I'm not saying that elemental performs badly in heroics, I'm saying we just don't know for sure, because the data isn't available yet. I only talk about hard data.

We do know that the spec is dead last in normal modes.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Warlock
7990
So if it is dead last in normal but competitive in hardmode then what is the difference?

The good shaman are all in Hardcore guilds and so we are not seeing their numbers?

The worst players only play shaman and find spots in 10 man guilds?

Individuals like the shaman playstyle but are not playing the best?

The spec shines in certain situations but lacks in others?

Numbers really wont help this out. As with warlocks it really comes down to mechanics and how they are utilized. So I do understand your quest for numbers and an understanding of the wonders of statistics. But there are all kinds of issues out there and many of them can be addressed without the use of the numbers. I hope ele gets a good look because it has been the red headed step child for far too long.
Reply Quote
48 Human Rogue
3510
Title. I've heard that they are still the worst caster in the game, if not the worst dps spec overall. Is this still true?


Love your name!

Named my rogue after Nikola Tesla, greatest geek ever!
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Shaman
11265
We're doing well enough that if you're always at the bottom of the meters you have a Learn2Play issue.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
12890
Ele is good
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Monk
17295
It's just such a gigantic disconnect because most high ranking guilds identified elemental as a very strong spec for the fights this tier and ensured they had ele alts ready to go and so on, because so many of the fights have cleave/aoe phases that play to elemental's strengths. Of course if the whole tier was Patchwerk they'd be bad, for example elemental is a fairly weak spec on Dark Animus, but when the tier has more fights like Megaera, Ji-Kun, Durumu and Lei Shen, all of which are great ele fights, who cares about sustained single target.

And when I say "good" in this case I mean "among the better DPS specs". They're not rogues or warlocks of course, but elemental is a good spec and you'll see at least one ele in most early kills of most bosses.

Some of that is about utility too, which shouldn't be ignored in favour of pretending numbers are the only thing that matters, unless you really believe that say a mage or windwalker monk doing equal damage to an ele shaman means they are equally valuable. But ele is also brought just for damage on some fights despite being a high utility spec, which is why the Durumu example is pertinent.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
9855
It's great that don't care about your spec being ranked dead last. You pay your $15/month just like everybody else. As long as you're having fun, that's awesome. Just don't say that everybody else should be fine with it too.


But they aren't. According to current statistics Ele shammies are right in the middle. They were never at the bottom, just close to it. You seem to just be bitter because you suck.

Where did you even get your numbers? Try looking at raidbots.com
Reply Quote
1 Dwarf Rogue
0
Everyone discredits stormlash totem. It adds at least 200k damage, per DPS, per use. If you are in a 25 man raid with 17 DPS, that's 4 mil damage from 1 gcd, every 5 minutes. Which is about 13.3k DPS from the shaman, it just isn't tied into their own damage, but it's because of them.

It's obviously a lot more on fights with damage mods or heavy burn phases. Also, if the fights lasts more than 5 minutes but less than 10, you use it twice for a higher uptime. For example, if a fight lasts 6 minutes, you can use it twice, that's 8 mil damage extra in 6 minutes, which is over 22k DPS.
Edited by Thogderk on 4/6/2013 2:14 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
11450
04/05/2013 12:34 AMPosted by Gondlem
It's just such a gigantic disconnect because most high ranking guilds identified elemental as a very strong spec for the fights this tier and ensured they had ele alts ready to go and so on, because so many of the fights have cleave/aoe phases that play to elemental's strengths. Of course if the whole tier was Patchwerk they'd be bad, for example elemental is a fairly weak spec on Dark Animus, but when the tier has more fights like Megaera, Ji-Kun, Durumu and Lei Shen, all of which are great ele fights, who cares about sustained single target.


This is what I was getting at way back on the first page. Ele mechanics play very well into fight mechanics this tier, so Ele is actually a pretty good DPS spec (the best I can remember it ever being).
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5230
04/06/2013 01:43 PMPosted by Seismic
But they aren't. According to current statistics Ele shammies are right in the middle. They were never at the bottom, just close to it.

I did post links. I assume you're using top100 or heroics.

You seem to just be bitter because you suck.

Ahh, so you're a troll. OK then.
Reply Quote
100 Troll Shaman
23795
Ele is bad in the sense that every single tier they need flat DMG buffs to their damage abilities (primarily LvB and LB).

Blizz needs to do something about ele scaling so that we aren't seeing "Shamanism now increases Lightning Bolt damage by 45% (up from 35%) and Lava Burst damage by 30% (up from 25%)" every tier.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Shaman
12395
Ele is bad in the sense that every single tier they need flat DMG buffs to their damage abilities (primarily LvB and LB).

Blizz needs to do something about ele scaling so that we aren't seeing "Shamanism now increases Lightning Bolt damage by 45% (up from 35%) and Lava Burst damage by 30% (up from 25%)" every tier.


Can agree with that. You know something is wrong with a spec when Blizz has to manually go in every single patch and flat-out increase their damage to compensate.

Other classes/specs get new gear to play with each patch. Ele Shamans get a Shamanism buff.
Edited by Saesra on 4/6/2013 10:23 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Priest
16590
They need to rework Elemental in the next expansion and maybe work out some sort of scaling so they don't need to buff Shamanism by 10% with every patch.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]